First Encounter with an HDS Rotary XP-G 200 Cool White

[jon_slider]

I do enjoy playing with Lee Filters, but I really prefer High CRI, over Low CRI plus filters.

I did some testing, and decided to get the LED in the Rotary replaced to N219b 4500k instead of using filters, which rob a significant amount of light, and still dont make it High CRI. Focus on the Red Beads in the middle, see how the Low CRI LED makes the red brown, only the N219b has positive R9 CRI. And imo, the minus green makes the beads redder than the amber filter.

top row l-r Gold Storm w N219b 4500k, stock HDS Rotary w CW XPG
second row l-r HDS Rotary w XPG plus half minus green #248, 28% loss, HDS Rotary w XPG plus ******* amber #162, 22% loss

what remains to be determined is the lumen loss going from XPG to N219b.. with XPG2 to N219b the loss is 28%

after that, the light might visit Henry for firmware upgrade and recalibration (unless the lumens go UP with the High CRI N219b, which ime is unlikely)

 

[thermal guy]

I think that is why I'm not very interested in tint and color and temp. Because to me those pictures above all look basically the same. Yes I can see very Subtle difference in them but in the end they look very much the same

 

[fyrstormer]

I think that is why I'm not very interested in tint and color and temp. Because to me those pictures above all look basically the same. Yes I can see very Subtle difference in them but in the end they look very much the same

Those examples aren't very helpful, unfortunately. All the colors are bright and monochromatic to begin with. To really see the difference between a normal LED vs. a Hi-CRI LED, you need photos of something with lots of color gradients, like paintings or outdoor landscapes. The difference is much more striking in those examples, because it will be obvious that certain colors are abnormally dark relative to a reference image lit with an incandescent light.

However, all name-brand LEDs made in the past few years are worlds better than name-brand LEDs from 2010 or so. Go back to a warm-tint Cree XR-E and you'll really see the difference compared to the Nichia 219b, and it will be much more obvious why people were so excited about Hi-CRI LEDs.

 

[jon_slider]

since the beads proved confusing (I was ONLY talking about the RED ones), let me show in another way, the difference between High CRI and Low CRI.. focus on the RED bar

Low CRI lights have Negative R9, no amount of added filters can ADD red that does is not being produced by the LED

 

[fyrstormer]

How did you measure this? I've never seen readouts like that before.

In any event, the zero-line on that graph must be a relative value, because it's impossible for any light source to emit a negative amount of light in any color.

 

[Hondo]

I don't think those are his measurements, those are likely from a supplier/manufacturer.

A negative value sounded wonky to me too, so I had a read. If you look here: https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/led-color-characteristics-factsheet.pdf you'll see on the third page a set of R9 values, and for a high-pressure sodium light, R9 is actually -214. The red looks like mud. Who knew?

Something else I learned, is that R9, or any kind of actual red, is not included in the colors used to determine CRI. That explains why the CRI numbers for the 219B 9080 LED's are not much better than many other high CRI LED's, yet things look much better with them when there are reds and colors with significant red in them present. jon figured this out a while back, and I was not fully aware of why he was asking about R9 content for various LED's then, but I get it now.

 

[jon_slider]

How did you measure this?

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the reviews by maukka
here is one:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...with-measurements-(XM-L2-CR123A-RCR123-16340)
scroll down the page and you will see comprehensive charts, that include the graphic I posted for the XM-L2 with negative R9

you will also find similar measurements here:
https://www.virence.com/product-page/nichia-nvsle21at-nvswe21at

the N219b 4500k chart came from virence.com , and I believe it was also done by maukka

I have no expertise by which to answer questions about how it is possible to report a negative R9 value, but, as you can see, it exists

feel free to contact maukka directly, and or do more googling to learn about CRI measurements

bottom line is there are various different categories of CRI, Ra being the one most typically reported, and CRI R9 being the one that I personally have a very strong interest in.. the Red bar.

 

[Hondo]

And just to circle back to what started this little tangent, selecting filters:

They are just that, a filter to remove something you have too much of, like green. Taking green away does not add red, it only reduces the ratio of green relative to red, so it looks "more red", but it's really less green, and also less bright to achieve that.

But, when I don't have the motivation to put a better LED in an otherwise nice light that does not see use due to an "icky" beam color, a filter is a quick way to put it in contention with some of the lights I consider "very nice". That is not to say it will be as good as something like the best 219's, but at least I can enjoy using it, especially when I don't "cross the beams". Also, since the brightness levels of modern lights are so much greater than what I normally use, the minor loss of lumens from the filter is a small price for me to be able to really enjoy using more of my lights.

 

[maukka]

My floor is a great test for CRI and especially R9. It's just much more vibrant with a good LED.

Images unaltered from a phone.

CRI80 (219C 5000K)

CRI90 (219C 5000K)

 

[jon_slider]

since the brightness levels of modern lights are so much greater than what I normally use, the minor loss of lumens from the filter is a small price for me to be able to really enjoy using more of my lights.

good points.. a filter can definitely improve an otherwise unacceptable beam

fwiw, the lumens loss from a filter is, to me, not minor. For example the Amber 162 reduces lumens by 22%.
A 1/2 minus green #248 reduces lumens by 28%.. which is similar to the lumen loss from swapping in an N219b in place of an XP-G2

I agree a filter is definitely a valid option, when changing the LED is not convenient...

I personally put such a High Priority on Red Rendering, that for my personal needs the Amber 162, and the 1/2 minus green leave me dissatisfied, because I DO cross the beams with my N219b 4500k 9080..

definitely do NOT compare a Cool White LED with a filter, to a true High CRI LED, or you will end up being a Tint Snob, like me.. LOL

since I have the choice to use N219b 4500k 9080 in my Gold Storm, my XPG Rotary is currently not in use.. If anyone can recommend a modder to swap the LED for me, I can provide the N219b 4500k 9080.. I just need someone with modding skills.. please PM me any modder suggestions

I wanted to LOVE the Rotary interface, but I do not. The jumps between levels bothers me. But the bottom line is I personally care much more about a High CRI LED than I do about the make, model, and UI of any light that I use... thats just me.

I do respect that a Cool White light has many valid uses. I also respect that some people have different priorities than I do. I respect different people have different needs, preferences and priorities, and in no way do I intend to make those whose choices are different than mine, wrong, for their needs. For example, I have seen several people mention that they care more about runtime at minimum levels, efficiency, than they do about tint or CRI..

Enjoy your lights, in whatever way makes you happy, and I will do the same

My floor is a great test for CRI and especially R9. It's just much more vibrant with a good LED.

Im glad you have ways to decide what you like.. Someone else will come along soon and tell you they cant see any significant difference in the two photos you posted..

I like to use the palm of my hand to compare CRI.. it is very obvious, to me, when I am looking at a hand that looks pink and alive, vs green and zombie dead.. but, to my suprise, some people dont care about the colors of their floor, hand, or food the way you and I might.

I am extremely grateful for all your contributions to my understanding of CRI, Tint and CCT. Your posts are full of information that I find extremely helpful. Thanks for taking the time to share your tests and images.

 

[Hondo]

Yep, we are in violent agreement. It is definitely a relative thing how important losing 1/4 of your brightness is. I look at the general rule that it takes a doubling, or halving, to be really noticeable. When I am still happy with my old 40-60 lumen lights, carrying a 200-600 lumen light with a filter is just great. But give me a light with a puke green beam at any brightness, and I won't use it.

I have a good stash of 4000K and 4500K 9080's, and need to find time to get them in more lights. I have not used other modders, so I'll leave that to others to recommend. But I don't consider myself good enough to work on other folks quality lights, even though most of my jobs have come out quite well.

I guess I'm a junior snob, I love these new (I guess old now, as they are discontinued, but more good stuff is coming) emitters, but I still am not disappointed in a decent tint in a non-high CRI light (yet).

I too like wood to show CRI. Also, my favorite target is some family photos on a shelf. Cool, low CRI lights make them look like an episode of the Munsters!

jon, surprised the steps on the Rotary bother you. I think of it like the ramping on the Novatac interface, just with a dial instead of holding the button down. But then, I mostly use Clickies, so there you go!

 

[jon_slider]

Yep, we are in violent agreement. It is definitely a relative thing how important losing 1/4 of your brightness is

LOL!
like you, a loss of 25% of 200 lumens is a non issue for me.. I seldom use more than 100 lumens, most of my use is below 50 lumens..

I have nothing but respect for your contributions, and have learned, and continue to learn, a great deal from your posts. Thanks for taking the time to share info.

the Munsters.. now that takes me back a few years..
I found the show very disturbing to my delicate sensibilities.. and could not enjoy watching it for long.

 

[Hondo]

Well, the Adams Family must have been absolutely terrifying then!

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Well, the Adams Family must have been absolutely terrifying then!

Yvonne De Carlo and Carolyn Jones were hotties in the day... especially for a young kid. Too bad the shows were in black in white... well, that's the only tv we had back then anyway. Makes me wonder... what was the tint on the black and white tv? This was, of course, back when I was the remote control... Dad: "Change the channel." Me: gets up from the floor and goes over to the tv and turns the knob.

 

[Hondo]

Oh yeah, and we were the last house in our neighborhood to get a color TV. But we went all out and got the remote then. So weird to think about now, all of the knobs turned with motors when you pressed the remote. That Ka-chunk, Ka-chunk when the channel dial turned - had to go all the way around if you missed your channel. And UHF was just one position on it. So if you wanted to change from channel 50 to 20, you had to get up and tune the manual UHF dial underneath it.


"Hey Gomez, lemme shoot him in the back!"

"Yooou raaaaang?"

"Oh, that's just uncle Fester playing with his dynamite."

"Tish, you spoke french!"


Those were the days!

 

[jon_slider]

comparison of minimum modes
Jetbeam RRT-01 w 219b 4500k 9080, minimum is less than 0.01, HDS 200 XP-G CW minimum 0.07 lumens

comparison of max modes
RRT-01 434 max, HDS 200 max

 

[thermal guy]

You have 3 lower setting on the HDS don't ya?

 

[jon_slider]

You have 3 lower setting on the HDS don't ya?

no, the firmware 2.0 specification for this original first run ACME light is as stated, 0.07 lumens.

But even if I had the firmware upgraded to include a 0.02 minimum, that is current firmware spec, the RRT-01 will still have a MUCH lower low. The minimum on the RRT-01 is so low my meter, which reads a minimum of 0.01, cannot even read the minimum levels the RRT-01 is capable. The Minimum on an HDS is not even close.

last night I set the RRT-01 so low that it would barely illuminate a wall 1 inch away, but I could tell the LED was lit. When I woke up in the morning, the light looked like it was off, until I held it up to my eyeball, and then I could see that it was still lit. An HDS is Much Brighter on Minimum than an RRT-01.

 

[thermal guy]

Really ok. Another reason to love my u42 and 60's 😀

 

[jon_slider]

Really ok. Another reason to love my u42 and 60's 😀

I dont follow you.
The minimum on your legacy lights is 0.08, which is Higher than on my First Generation Acme Rotary whose minimum is 0.07..

The lowest low HDS has to offer is not in the Legacy models, it is in the latest firmware for ACME models, whose minimum is 0.02