Ft. Hood Shootings

[sygyzy]

Lots of borderline racism here. Why am I not surprised? This was a terrible event done by an evil person. That's all there is to it.

If you are going to report facts, report it. Don't put your spin on it. To say the major claimed he was harassed because of his ethnicity, despite being raised in an upper class family in the United States means nothing. You mean to say bigots only attack poor Middle Easterners? Or, similarly, you are spared from harassment if you are a rich Arab?

Fort Hood is the HQ for the the military program to ease PTSD, stress, whatever you want to call it that's causing soldiers to become incredibly depressed and sometimes kill themselves. It's ironic that this happened there and the aggressor is a psychiatrist that is supposed to help soldiers deal with this stress. And it's his own stress that probably set it off.

I don't buy that he is a terrorist or planned for this to be his end game. I don't know how long it takes to become a major but if he hated the military so much, why would he purposely enlist and rise the ranks?

 

[270winchester]

oops.

 

[DonShock]

Wouldn't the shooter have had to gone to combat before he got PTSD? There's been nothing mentioned, unless you assume all soldiers have it, to suggest he suffers from PTSD. Just the opposite, the reports were that he was fighting to avoid serving overseas.

And although it's still to soon to verify their authenticity, the news reports are quoting his own blog posts and his statements to fellow officers as the basis for suggesting his motivation was his anti-war sentiments. Actually, based on the reported statements, he wasn't so much anti-war, it was more like he was rooting for the enemy and supporting their attacks on our troops. But that has nothing to do with his race, it is solely based on his reported statements.

As far as I have seen in both the local (I live in the Ft Hood area) and national news reports, his race was never mentioned. He does have a middle eastern sounding name, but he was reported to be a muslim convert and most take such names when they convert so that tells you nothing about his race. Personally, I'm not sure of his race. The B/W photos I've seen are pretty generic. He could be white, light skinned black, hispanic, middle eastern, or some other one I haven't thought of or mentioned. The criticism isn't due to his race, it's due to his words and his deeds.

 

[LuxLuthor]

It is too early to make any useful conclusions about motivation.

This could be the first presentation of a mental illness--even a psychotic break. I'm reminded of the Virginia Tech, or Columbine scenarios.

His parents reportedly grew up in Jordan and immigrated to the USA, but that should not mean anything nefarious.

There will be more information and time for people to learn what this was all about. Now is a time to grieve and support those who serve the country.

 

[StarHalo]

To say the major claimed he was harassed because of his ethnicity, despite being raised in an upper class family in the United States means nothing. You mean to say bigots only attack poor Middle Easterners? Or, similarly, you are spared from harassment if you are a rich Arab?

The comment about his parents/upbriging was to highlight that the Major was 100% native, and had no indication of foreign origin about him aside from his appearance, yet was still "harassed" for not being similar. (Further updates indicate that Hasan's harassment consisted of frequently overhearing the various slang terms used by soldiers for Middle Easterners which personally offended him.)

I don't know how long it takes to become a major but if he hated the military so much, why would he purposely enlist and rise the ranks?

The military gave him the scholarship to go into the mental health field; his time spent at Walter Reed was completely covered by the government. What is remarkable is the amount of time he's been in the military without actually having served - he has never been deployed in over six years. Veteran commentators have noted that this might be some kind of record.

I'm reminded of the Virginia Tech, or Columbine scenarios.

Hasan graduated from Virginia Tech.

 

[Lightraven]

Becoming a major doesn't take very long if you are commissioned as a captain, the next lower rank. This is what doctors and lawyers are commissioned as, without any military training at all, as far as I understand.

Here's how it works: You are in med school and need some cash to pay for it, so you talk to the military. They offer to pay your bills if you serve as an Army doctor for some number of years. Once you complete med school and become a doctor, you are instantly commissioned as a captain and begin serving on a base or ship. These officers have no command authority, beyond what any doctor has. They are basically specialists. They are not expected to fight, but to do their jobs. And frankly, Iraq is only dangerous for a small subset of troops anyway, these days. An Army psychiatrist would probably have nothing to worry about.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

I don't agree, and I have also been through that center. I've been in the Army for 19 years. Some of these kids coming out of basic and other training know how to kill, but not how to deal with it. They are also not trained for these type of events like the Military Police, Police, and SWAT are. Many of them (not all) you wouldn't want to just react to an armed person in a crowd of people. Not to mention the hot heads, and oh, by the way, most soldiers like to drink on their off time too. I think that there could be better and more secure measures taken, but arming everyone with a loaded weapon IS NOT the answer.

You sound like an experienced operator....fire control discipline to limit collateral damage. SFG2Lman, who indicates he was on post at the time is also right- something doesn't add up with this whole story. The fact that he was counseling (listening) to all kinds of horror stories likely was a contributing factor- but he SHOULD have sought help- unless it was a complete psychotic break......(more likely). Was he wearing body armor?
Who knows what his state of mind would have been.......when the dust settles, we may or may not know the true casualty count of the crossfire, the shooter etc. Remember the Pat Tillman situation.....takes time for the truth to come out.

 

[will]

Becoming a major doesn't take very long if you are commissioned as a captain, the next lower rank. This is what doctors and lawyers are commissioned as, .

This is correct. he still owed some time for the time the army footed his medical education costs. Walter Reed was his training, internship, and his fellowship. He only left Walter Reed in July.

This was a planned attack. What his reasons were is up for discussion.

 

[Empath]

Russ, without any commentary on whether your opinion is or isn't accurate, I still have to say your choice to inject the controversy should have been done in the Underground. Your comments have been removed. It's not Cafe material.

 

[Linger]

Thanx

 

[StarHalo]

- something doesn't add up with this whole story.

- but he SHOULD have sought help-

What doesn't add up is the PTSD angle; it's post traumatic stress disorder - in order to have it, something traumatic has to have occured. Dodging service to avoid being a part of what creates trauma is the opposite of having it. Hasan came from a good family that was well off, got his career path fully paid for without ever repaying/recompensing in any form, and had a "military experience" that never went beyond the bounds of a well-appointed hospital or military base. His "stress" centered around having to do the service required of him for the government-provided free ride, something every other person in similar circumstances/military service has done without killing all their coworkers. He was seeking help for his problem, by asking his facility colleagues to gin up some medical disorder that could be noted on his record so he could avoid deployment.

unless it was a complete psychotic break......(more likely).

This was a planned attack.

It can only be one or the other, you can't plan to go insane.. A quick glance at the timeline makes the answer pretty clear; he begins identifying with anti-US extremist sentiment more and more over the preceding months, enough to voice it openly in front of other officers and post publicly on the internet about it. He acquires his own firearms (he's anti-war yet owns semi-automatic weapons?) and then deliberately goes through the necessary motions to bring them onto the base. He goes to a part of the base that's having an event that day that guarantees a high density crowd, plus some of the colleagues that declined to add notes to his record will be there as well..

I fully understand the careful and almost hands-off handling of the subject due to the sensitive nature of the religious and cultural aspects involved, but you do a disservice to all involved when you try to go around the objective core event and seek alternate or secondary reasons for what has happened. Once you're firing into a group of people while shouting Arabic phrases, it is a terrorist attack.

 

[McGizmo]

It may be informative to see what truths and information come out about this and whether they will be given any spin; not that it would necessarily be recognizable as such.

Regardless, it is a tragedy. It would seem that this guy failed at the core of his humanity and took lives as a result. I can't imagine what it would be like to counsel soldiers suffering from their experience in battle. Depending on this guys levels of sympathy and empathy, the toll may have been more than he could handle. He may well have felt that some of the military actions being taken were wrong and with the upcoming proposition of being deployed he may have found himself at an impasse. From some of the comments I have read, it sounds like he wanted "out".

It sounds like this guy had obligations that he couldn't handle and snapped. Is it a coincidence that his field of study was the human mind and his apparently failed in reason? I would guess he reached some internal tipping point with a catastrophe resulting.

Just yesterday eve, I opted to put myself in harms way to come to the aid of a man who was clinging to a buoy because he couldn't handle the strong rip current that had swept him out to it. I borrowed a boogie board from a family on the beach because I knew I didn't want to deprive this man from flotation should I fail in my attempt to get him back to shore. I swam out to him with a reasonable idea of my own abilities as well as an idea of what I would be facing. As it turned out, the task was greater than I expected and with about a third of the way still to go, I requested additional horsepower from shore and another swimmer came to my aid and the two of us were then able to make it the rest of the way in. Could I have handled the "rescue" without the added help? Probably, but I was smart enough to know the right move was to ask for more help. With the best of intentions, one can get in over their head. Could that have been what happened here with this guy?

Is it possible that this guy was aiding others who were drowning and ultimately he drowned himself? In hindsight did he seek help that went unanswered? Probably some of you guys can and would pull a trigger simply on instinct. It seems that this guy pulled the trigger countless times as a result of some mental process and decision. What could possibly have been going on in his mind?!? Will we ever know or be privy to any answers?

If anything, I hope some insight and understanding can result from this tragedy. I did read that some of the injuries suffered may have come from friendly fire. That is not trivial and certainly a factor in consideration of who should be armed and who shouldn't, I would imagine.

To be very clear here, I am not trying to defend this man but I do hope those who need to understand what happened can come to an understanding of why he did what he did and how this might be avoided. Capital punishment aside, I am glad that this man is still alive at present and I hope he can provide insight to those who will question him.

Why?

 

[LuxLuthor]

McGizmo, excellent post.

There are more tidbits coming out if you watch the news, but he was basically a loner type which could mean a lot of things in terms of his own mental illness. A psychotic stress-induced episode could have started earlier in the day and evolved into taking those actions.

Paranoid schizophrenics with a psychotic episode can get messages telling them what to do that is not under their own control.

No excuses for what he did, only that it makes sense to get a better picture. Apparently he is in a coma. His parents have absolutely condemned what he did, and that he was not raised in a way that would predict this.

 

[Patriot]

Or allow them to protect themselves and each other.

I've been through that processing center. They should allow the soldiers who work there to carry firearms. In fact, every soldier on post should be required to be armed at all times. This Asshole would have been limited to one or two before being gunned down much much sooner. If we don't trust our own soldiers with guns and ammo, who do we trust?

Yes, I know for a fact that nobody but MP's and civilian contractor guards have any weapons on post. That is except for homicidal maniacs. Homicidal maniacs can carry whatever they want whenever they want cause they don't follow rules and laws.

Precisely.

Thanks for this post Carbine.

Carbine
Even in Kuwait we were only given 30 rounds of 5.56 for our defensive position. That's 30 rounds for 150 enlisted men to share. The officers had a full combat load each. The position had over 400 rounds of 9mm ammo for the officers Berettas. I'm still bitter at their lack of trust in us. Probably one of the main reasons I got out instead of re-enlisting.

Pure insanity and for what purpose.....

 

[tygger]

Just read he may have been taking anti-malaria drug Lariam for his deployment to afghanistan? Don't know if thats confirmed or not. Here's something from rxlist.com website: :shrug:

Occasionally, more severe neuropsychiatric disorders have been reported such as: sensory and motor neuropathies (including paresthesia, tremor and ataxia), convulsions, agitation or restlessness, anxiety, depression, mood changes, panic attacks, forgetfulness, confusion, hallucinations, aggression, psychotic or paranoid reactions and encephalopathy. Rare cases of suicidal ideation and suicide have been reported though no relationship to drug administration has been confirmed.

http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm

 

[Patriot]

The first responder who shot Maj. Hasan, a female security officer of some kind, is also alive and in stable condition with several gunshot wounds.

Thanks for the updates Halo. I got a little behind in this thread.

I'm glad that she's alive, as she's probably one of the biggest reasons that more people weren't killed. I hope our hero makes a full recovery.

Just read he may have been taking anti-malaria drug Lariam for his deployment to afghanistan? Don't know if thats confirmed or not. Here's something from rxlist.com website: :shrug:
http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm

Interesting "Warnings" page.
http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm

I guess they'll have to determine whether or not this guy was behaving strangely before the drug was taken or not.

 

[mousehunter]

just little bits I have noticed on other boards - currently it is thought the shooter had 2 handguns, but only one was used. It was a 5.7mm (5.7 is a very controversial pistol). But anyway, do the math and it is essentially .22", but not a .22lr any more than a .223 (5.65mm) is. The 5.7mm pistol is noted for being quite loud - and uses necked cases, which is why there was probably initial reports of a rifle being used.

IMHO, the bullet that was lodged in your friend had already gone through something to slow it down.

Hats off to the female civilian police officer who rushed towards the gunfire and prevented a lot more casualties. (I could whine a lot about other active shooter situations where the police did not engage)

 

[Patriot]

just little bits I have noticed on other boards - currently it is thought the shooter had 2 handguns, but only one was used. It was a 5.7mm (5.7 is a very controversial pistol).

Actually, only the caliber was slightly controversial. The only remaining controversy is among ballistic experts as to its effectiveness. Unfortunately this incident provides the kind of data they probably wish they didn't have.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF003&gid=FNG001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

FiveSeven Forums:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/

 

[SFG2Lman]

all speculation aside (command said we aren't allowed to...media's job) i hope this guy gets the firing squad...and if he tries the temporary insanity...i hope they give it to him and then put him in front of the firing squad...it makes me sick to think of the families hes ruined...and thank God for the policewoman that took him down without hesitation

 

[Mjolnir]

From the little information that is known, it does not seem like this guy was suffering from schizophrenia. People would likely have noticed this. I am not really sure how someone can function as a psychiatrist with schizophrenia. Schizophrenics have a lot of difficulties in their everyday lives, and there is no way that he could have functioned in the army with schizophrenia.
Additionally, males often first elicit symptoms of schizophrenia in their late teens or early 20's. It is unlikely that he just had a schizophrenic break at 39.

I would assume that he would be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and not normal criminal law, since he is in the Army. In normal criminal law, you have to prove that you had a break with reality and were unable to determine the consequences of your actions and the difference between "right" and "wrong" in order to plead insanity. Insanity pleas are FAR less common in everyday life than they are portrayed to be by TV and the media. Not only are they not very common, but of those who plead not guilty by reason of insanity, far less than half actually succeed.

I would think that he would be charged with some form of treason. Of course, it is too early to know the circumstances.