I thought Surefires were waterproof...

unique

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Offtopic..
Are fenix, models like the TK10 or TK11 waterproof?
All their lights like to say
"Waterproof to IPX-8 Standard"
Does this just make it rain proof? For example, walking with the light in heavy rain or dunk proof?
I've seen tests on CPF where the TK10 has been ducked in water and come out fine..
 

DM51

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Offtopic..
Are fenix, models like the TK10 or TK11 waterproof?
All their lights like to say
"Waterproof to IPX-8 Standard"
Does this just make it rain proof? For example, walking with the light in heavy rain or dunk proof?
I've seen tests on CPF where the TK10 has been ducked in water and come out fine..
Yes, this is off-topic, and we are NOT going to get into a Fenix vs. Surefire waterproof contest in this thread. You may ask your question in another thread, or better still, look for an existing one.
 

Barbarin

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Making a WATERPROOF flashlight does not mean adding some more O-rings here or there. In fact it is easy, but... why does not everybody have success on this?

1. Being waterproof must be one of the primary objectives during the design and development. It is near impossible to make a flashlight and then try to make it waterproof. Positive pressure (very high) , as McGizmo explained better that I could do, is one of the keys. Having small molecules of water being pushed to come in is like someone with a needle and a weight with some pounds on it looking for a weak point in your body to come into. As soon as one of those millions of water microdrops can find a small gap they will come in like crazy.

2. It is more expensive. A small light like a Barbolight U-04 is standing a total pressure higher than 600 Kg when it is -50 m underwater, and more than 2500 Kg when it is at -200!!! That means that you can not use cheap materials or poor machining. At the same time is not just water what makes flashlights fail, but salt, which can make corrosion easily on many materials and destroy electronics. Most of the users does not need this feature, so if you make waterproof lights you know that you are making lights which are way more expensive than the rest, so more difficult to sell. (Nobody wants to make a product more difficult to sell), so unless your customer ask for it, you don't take care about waterproofness, but if you didn't thought about it from the begining, you can not give him a reliable waterprrof light, unless you make a new design, and by that time he will buy another light...

At the same time, even if you are not going to dive with your light, you know that a waterproof light is by design something very reliable, as it was designed to survive extreme conditions, so it will stand mud, rain, fog, sand, humidity... The batteries, the electronics and everythinh that you keep inside, is really safe.

My two "pesetas"
 

Size15's

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SureFire uses a variety of methods to ensure it's flashlights can recover from being flooded - anodising, Chem-coating, conformal coatings for the electronics, plating and such for other components.

However, as "tactical" lights they must be designed for operators to use - and that means TailCap switches that rotate easily as required.
There is a balance to be made between making the o-ring seal tight - and the components difficult to rotate, and making them easy to rotate - perhaps such that the seal isn't as robust.

I would assume it is easier to design a water-tight seal on components not designed nor intended to be rotated as matter of course in use.

In terms of compromise for an everyday carry and use flashlight the waterproofness is not generally a high priority feature given that it is not usual for people to submerge their everyday carry items on a routine basis. That's not normal use. Such activity requires dedicated tools and equipment in the case of flashlights - that means a DiveLight. There are many options, and SureFire have decided not to play in that corner of the market.

Al
 

Barbarin

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SureFire uses a variety of methods to ensure it's flashlights can recover from being flooded - anodising, Chem-coating, conformal coatings for the electronics, plating and such for other components.

However, as "tactical" lights they must be designed for operators to use - and that means TailCap switches that rotate easily as required.
There is a balance to be made between making the o-ring seal tight - and the components difficult to rotate, and making them easy to rotate - perhaps such that the seal isn't as robust.

I would assume it is easier to design a water-tight seal on components not designed nor intended to be rotated as matter of course in use.

In terms of compromise for an everyday carry and use flashlight the waterproofness is not generally a high priority feature given that it is not usual for people to submerge their everyday carry items on a routine basis. That's not normal use. Such activity requires dedicated tools and equipment in the case of flashlights - that means a DiveLight. There are many options, and SureFire have decided not to play in that corner of the market.

Al

The compression index of the o-rings and the friction of the threads, pending on the quality of the anodizing, number of threads, type of, diameter.... at different pressures is a difficult equation and only can be learned testing it thousand times.

Time ago we knew that it was hard to switch on/off a light when diving deeper than -50. We changed some things on the tailcap. the o-rings. the materials and the grease we use, and now they are very easy to turn them on-off... but at the same time they are easier to switch in on -off on surface. Things can be done, but it takes a lot of time... and money. In fact, if 99% of your customers are not going to need that feature.. why do you want them to pay for something they are not going to use??

I know Surefire and many others decided not to play that game, and what we wanted was to develope a product with unique features for specific users.
 

McGizmo

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SureFire uses a variety of methods to ensure it's flashlights can recover from being flooded - anodising, Chem-coating, conformal coatings for the electronics, plating and such for other components.

.......

Al

Bold emphasis added by me.

As I understand the designation, waterproof, at least as Ralph Nadar and crew intended, an item is waterproof if it can be subjected to water and continue to function properly. In the case of a watch, the watch had to be able to survive a flood with all components getting wet, and continue to function properly. That is a tough act to perform.

I was real impressed to find that SF had gone to the extent they did in researching conformal coatings and implementing them on the electronic circuits. This would be a mandatory step in truly making a light waterproof but I don't think any light is really waterproof and especially if the water is salt water. I know of no existing reflectors which can be subjected to salt water and continue to perform as they should. Perhaps a light with an optic lens or TIR might qualify. I have my doubts that any of the LED's can be subjected to saltwater under pressure and not be adversly effected to some extent. If you have an electric potential present in a salt water flood, the electrons will flow in places unintended and they will induce galvanic corrosion in real time!!

IMHO, one aspect to a good dive equipment design is consideration of a flood event and addressing the ease of replacement of those components that would likely be compromised in such an event.

A fresh water or even fresh muddy water flood would be much less destructive to a light and a clean water rince may be all that is required. A light could be flooded in fresh water and continue to operate in some cases. I am guesing that the A2 which was the subject in the OP was flooded with fresh and not salt water.

To my way of thinking, the water, fresh or salt, is more significant in consideration than given credit by most people or manufacturers in their claims. I have taken some aluminum lights (not dive lights) into the ocean and had them function properly and not flood. However, saltwater got into areas which were not cleared out sufficiently upon a fresh water rince and over a short period of time corrosion took place. I have experienced this with lights of my own build, some SF lights, a Gladius and a limited production light of one of our own CPF members. It is my opinion that aluminum in salt water must have a good hard anodize film and in any areas that this film has been compromised or is not present, corrosion will occur unless all salt is removed immediately. If there is current passing through any area that is not electrically isolated by a hard anodize film, you will have galvanic action.

I believe a light can be considered fresh water safe but not saltwater safe. This is true regardless of whether the light floods or not but certainly in the case of a flood, the stakes are much higher!

Ironically, the UW camera housing I mentioned in a post above is for the most part waterproof. That is to say that a flood of salt water doesn't really damage it. It does have an electronic circuit with its own battery that functions as a leak or flood detector. There is a red LED that blinks when the circuit's probe senses water. Cool except that this circuit doesn't have effective conformal coating and after a single flood of only a couple drops, if these drops flow over the circuit, the circuit dies!! :green: Oh yeah, the housing is waterproof but of course in the case of a serious flood, the camera within is toast as is the lens! Easy to remedy though. Just replace camera and lens and away you go. :D
 

Barbarin

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Bold emphasis added by me.

... I don't think any light is really waterproof and especially if the water is salt water. I know of no existing reflectors which can be subjected to salt water and continue to perform as they should. Perhaps a light with an optic lens or TIR might qualify. I have my doubts that any of the LED's can be subjected to saltwater under pressure and not be adversly effected to some extent. If you have an electric potential present in a salt water flood, the electrons will flow in places unintended and they will induce galvanic corrosion in real time!!

The heads, incluing the electronics, reflectors, diodes... of our lights, are sealed for life (of course there are modders with capabilities...) so even in the case of battery tube flooding, they keep on working. In fact there has been some cases in which a flashlight has beeb opened underwater and it has keep on working all the dive. of course, the batteries are ruined, and most of the cases is near impossible to open again the light because of internal pressure build up unless the pressure release hard piston is removed. (That is the reason we made the lights that way)

Unfortunately that is no good for modders, but good for reliability.

By the way, I designed this light looking at the design of war ships and submarines, which have isolated chambers. That is the reason of the name U.

Regarding salt water and anodizing, we recovered a flashlight after a 13.000 hours - 38 m oceanic submersion and the anodizing was reduced by 70% on the areas exposed just to salt water (from 40 to 12 micra), but on the areas exposed to life forms not just the anodizing, but holes as deep as 1 mm were found.

Happily not enough to make an entry, so we just changed the battery, cleaned the contacts slightly corroded form battery leakage after deep discharge, and the light was working. Not just a drop of water inside.

Will post pictures.

Javier
 
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guncollector

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Well...in years past you were able to order a 6-PN which according to Surefire is water-resistant to 30-meters. The "N" designator I understand was for "Navy", as these units were designed to the Navy's specifications and requirements.

I know this, because I purchased a 6-PN directly from Surefire in 2003. I still have it, and use it when I scuba dive.

I am very careful however to replace the O-rings frequently, and lubricate appropriately before any diving activity.

I'm not sure if there was any special serial-numbering of these units, I'll have to check.
 

Size15's

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guncollector,
NB: There is no "-" between 6 and PN - it's just a regular 6P that has been individually tested and rated by SureFire to comply with US Navy dive specifications. I understand it that SureFire can add a second o-ring to the TailCap-end of the body, and they ensure the o-rings are in good condition and sufficiently lubricated. Otherwise it is no different from any other 6P.

Of course if you remove the bezel or the TailCap this voids SureFire's rating. To replace the batteries and regain the rating one would need to return it to SureFire for retesting.
knightrider's post above links to a thread about the 6PN.
Without wanting to rehash the whole thread - once you open an N-Certified SureFire you are responsible for ensuring the seals are well maintained just like if you open your watch - it's seal is no long certified.

Al
 

precisionworks

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"Waterproof to IPX-8 Standard"
Does this just make it rain proof? For example, walking with the light in heavy rain or dunk proof?

IP-x8 means that the equipment is suitable for continuous immersion (deeper than 1m) in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer. Normally, this will mean that the equipment is hermetically sealed.

IP-x8 is the highest NEMA rating available. By comparison, the "weatherproof" electrical enclosures in my shop are rated NEMA IP-4x - so the components are protected from splashing water.
 

Blue72

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IP-x8 means that the equipment is suitable for continuous immersion (deeper than 1m) in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer. Normally, this will mean that the equipment is hermetically sealed.

IMHO not a very good standard for someone wanting a very water resistant light
 

VF1Jskull1

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10 feet of water pressure is 10 feet of water pressure no matter the altitude.... only vapor pressure changes....

and since when did they make 10 feet deep bathtubs?
 

Blue72

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..............since when did they make 10 feet deep bathtubs?

The point he was trying to make is that a light moving in 1 feet of water could create more water pressure than a light sitting still in 10 feet of water.
 

SureAddicted

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I have to admit many CPF members would likely tell me off for the lack of care I take of the o-rings and threads on my L1 I use as EDC. I mean they are pretty dirty and obviously worn.

Al

+1
I'm exactly the same. I have never lubed any of my lights, including the SF's. I mite need give them swimming lessons. I have faith in the E series that they wont leak.
 

Patriot

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Regarding salt water and anodizing, we recovered a flashlight after a 13.000 hours - 38 m oceanic submersion and the anodizing was reduced by 70% on the areas exposed just to salt water (from 40 to 12 micra), but on the areas exposed to life forms not just the anodizing, but holes as deep as 1 mm were found.


Good info Barbarin. I'm guessing that you're talking about 13,000 hours not 13.0 correct?
 

DuckhunterInTN

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In addition to my points in the thread linked above, I would never consider 'EDC' type lights such as the E-Series and L1/L2/A2 to be waterproof. I would never submerge them deliberately, and I would not expect them not to leak.

The two-stage push button pressure switch TailCap is often rotated in use, and when carried and used a lot it is likely the o-ring will become worn, and contaminated with dust etc. It is not designed to be a water-tight seal for a submersible flashlight.

The larger, standard models - 6P, C2, M2 etc I have significantly greater confidence in the ability of the seals to withstand submersion as these lights can be tested and rated without issue.

As for SureFire's use of gaskets to seal components not intended to be unscrewed - these gaskets, often trapezoid in cross-section make for very capable water-tight seals when sufficiently well assembled. After all this form of seal is used on the windows of the models SureFire does certify waterproof.

Do you consider the G2 to be as waterproof/resistant as the 6P, C2, M2, etc?
 

Lightraven

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I've gone into the ocean surf a few times after suspects with all or most of my law enforcement gear. The Surefire M-6 was fully submerged in at least one case, and the X-300 was submerged in at least two. I rinsed both in fresh running water. I opened the X-300 and it was dry inside. I may have done the same for the M-6, but I don't remember.

Both lights continue to function normally, in addition to the Wolf Eyes Boxer and Novatac 120T that also got wet.

For what it's worth, at least two of our SWAT guys carry A-2's (spray painted camouflage) on duty. I don't know if they were issued these lights or were private purchase, but for them, it's a tactical light.
 
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Size15's

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Do you consider the G2 to be as waterproof/resistant as the 6P, C2, M2, etc?
Not at all. I have a variety of Nitrolon models such as the G2, G2L, G2Z etc and find the TailCaps are 'loose' compared to SureFire's metal offerings. I do not have the confidence there is sufficient seal due to the play in the TailCap threads for the G2 to cope well with submersion. That said, I've never tried it. Not least because I have no need to - I have plenty of other, far more suitable flashlights for wet work. SureFire's P60 and P60L are too wide for underwater use - that's my experience of the C2 and M2 underwater anyway.
 
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