Is more lumens really brighter

[Rich1833]

Im having trouble understanding the different flashlights and there advertised lumens. Most of the more expensive lights that I am assuming are of a better and higher build quality have less lumens. Does that really mean they are not as bright? For example the Eagletac D25LC2 Tactical (about half the price of the others) claims 1200 lumens. But the Malkoff MD2 only claims to be 325 lumens, the Elzetta Bravo only claims to be 235 lumens, and the Surefire E2D defender claims 500 lumens.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

The more popular LED emitters can hit 1000LM-1200LM at usually 3 amps and within a safe temperature range. Malkoff, Elzetta, SureFire and some others, keep their outputs down for a variety of reasons. Weapons' lights don't need to be at max output because this might expose the user to counter-fire and that's no good. I think that Gene Malkoff markets his lights to people like LEO agencies, where having a 3000LM blow torch in their hand isn't part of the job description. These lights are simple to use and very, very reliable.

As to your other comments, you'll see a couple of numbers when discussing flashlight output: LED lumens and OTF (out the front) lumens. Obviously, LED lumens will be the higher number for any given light, as that measurement gets taken right at the LED emitter, whereas the OTF number comes from a position right in front of the lens, which could be an inch, or two, away from the LED die.

You can search for the exact numbers, but much like sound pressure/audio gear, you have to increase output by a factor of X (I want to say ~50% plus, but don't quote me on it) for our eyes to perceive a meaningful increase.

In other words, going from 100LM to 125LM, probably won't exhibit a noticeable difference to most of our eyes, but switching between a 100LM mode and say a 200LM mode, should appear to be brighter.

Chris

 

[RetroTechie]

I'm having trouble understanding the different cars and their advertised acceleration. Most of the more expensive cars that I am assuming are of a better and higher build quality have lower acceleration. Does that really mean they won't accelerate as fast? For example car A (about half the price of the others) claims 0-60 in 4 seconds. But car B only claims to do 0-60 in 8 seconds, car C only claims to do 0-60 in 11 seconds, and car D claims 0-60 in 6 seconds.

 

[idleprocess]

All other things being equal (identical optics, thermals, no limits on supply voltage and current), more lumens will be brighter ... to an instrument at least.

But you have hit upon a sad reality of the industry - lumen claim inflation. Reputable manufacturers test their products under realistic conditions. Less-reputable manufacturers test them under unrealistic ideal conditions. Disreputable makes simply list something off the LED spec sheet or make up a number out of thin air. This predates LED flashlights - take a gander at all the "1 million candlepower" spotlights on store shelves in the 1980s.

 

[Grizzman]

Malkoff MD2s and the Elzettas that utilize Malkoff LED assemblies are designed to produce their full output for as long as the batteries can supply the necessary juice.

The Elzetta M60 LED assembly was designed quite a few years ago, and has not been updated to keep up with the Jonses. Their AVS heads are very capable, and highly recommended.

While significantly larger than a D25LC2, the Malkoff 18650 Hound Dog has an output of 900 lumens with no step-down, a CD approaching 30,000, and supreme durability.

My FourSevens Quark QT2L-X has an impressive spec of 780 lumens, but that's only for one minute before it steps down to 390. I might be able to reset the Burst mode by cycling the power, but the light would get extremely hot (possibly even to an unsafe level).

To answer your question, yes my QT2L-X is definitely brighter than my Malkoff MD2 and ZFL-M60, but it's not the one I'd choose if the light has to absolutely work without exception.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

The car metaphor is a bit troubled, too. All other things being equal (when are they?) every flashlight manufacturer has the same batteries, and the same seesaw of Output vs Runtime. An 18650 will always have 1800-3600mAh, an RCR123 will always have 350-450mAh no matter what is written on the label, etc.

So for my Police Work light, I will NEVER EVER want to be left in the dark, nor have trouble seeing a decent distance. So we see more-throwy flashlights, with moderate (3-5W power) output. The batteries used are Primaries, which are very predictable (If you don't mind discarding partly-used cells) and nearly immune to temperature problems.

In most situations, 100 lumens of light is enough. That covers about 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 flashlight use cases. But it's darn fun to have more, and feels nice to cover ALL the use cases, with 0.001 lumens to 1000 lumens or more.

 

[StorminMatt]

So for my Police Work light, I will NEVER EVER want to be left in the dark, nor have trouble seeing a decent distance. So we see more-throwy flashlights, with moderate (3-5W power) output.

Throw vs flood is also a consideration here. Generally speaking, these expensive flashlights are more throw oriented than, say, the Eagletac D25A2. That's because their intended uses (ie law enforcement, weapons lights, etc) generally require throw over flood. And this requires a greater emphasis on the quality of the optics and design of the head of the light, which increases cost more thansimlly throwing in a more powerful emitter. Lights like the D25C2, on the other hand, are more designed around outdoor recreation, where flood is more valuable than throw. This means you can get away with using a larger, higher output emitter (like the XM-L2). And you don't really care about optics. Also, the light need not be as tough or reliable. Therefore, it can be cheaper.

 

[Timothybil]

You can search for the exact numbers, but much like sound pressure/audio gear, you have to increase output by a factor of X (I want to say ~50% plus, but don't quote me on it) for our eyes to perceive a meaningful increase.

In other words, going from 100LM to 125LM, probably won't exhibit a noticeable difference to most of our eyes, but switching between a 100LM mode and say a 200LM mode, should appear to be brighter.

Chris

It's a second power function: To double perceived brightness one needs four times the output, to triple, nine times, etc.. That's why I like the mode levels on my lights to start at one or two lumens, and each step higher be about four times the previous. That way I have a reliable gradient of increasing brightness from bottom to top.

One thing I always get a kick out of is seeing a 'showerhead' light with fifteen or twenty emitters claiming '2000 lumens of power!'. Assuming each emitter is 100 lumens, technically they are correct. But they imply that because of all those lumens they will be able to light up the world just as well as all those expensive lights, when in reality they will be lucky to light things up 100ft away. 'Caveat emptor' definitely applies.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Im having trouble understanding the different flashlights and there advertised lumens. Most of the more expensive lights that I am assuming are of a better and higher build quality have less lumens. Does that really mean they are not as bright? For example the Eagletac D25LC2 Tactical (about half the price of the others) claims 1200 lumens. But the Malkoff MD2 only claims to be 325 lumens, the Elzetta Bravo only claims to be 235 lumens, and the Surefire E2D defender claims 500 lumens.

This is a complex question you ask and there are several answers, so I hope I can help.


First off, consider lumens in the same way you would consider torque in a car. More is always good, but the highest doesn't always mean the best. E.g. a V8 Ferrari might make way less torque than a diesel hatchback, but the Ferrari will make more HP and have more performance.

Torches are the same, lumens is the amount of light, but doesn't tell you what it does with it. So you need to consider lux/beam distance and beam profile in relation to your chosen use for the light. As lower lumens might yield more throw (lux) for a given application.


As for the actual numbers, there are probably 3 things to watch for.

1. If you are looking at Chinese budget lights (which can be worthwhile as many are really good). Be aware that they generally lie about output claims with crazy things like 3000 lumen from an XM-L T6.

What is worth doing is reading up and understanding what the different emitters and setups are capable of. However as a rule, single emitter and single battery lights are rarely much over 1000-1200 lumen. So if you see this kind of figure or higher, you might want to research it more so.


2. Where the lumen reading is coming from. Just as with cars and HP, you can measure/derive the figure in different ways (engine, or at the wheels with a car).

With torches you get what is known as LED lumens, i.e. what the LED makes with no obstructions. And Out The Front (OTF) lumens, which is the LED in a torch with a reflector and lens (as these will lower the lumen output). OTF readings sometimes follow an established standard. This is like the car world too, where you get Bhp SAE Net or Bhp DIN.

In the torch world the most common standard is ANSI FL1. This takes an OTF reading at 30sec after activation.

ANSI FL1 also have standards for beam distance and runtime. Which it it is also worth understanding. As runtime measure to ANSI FL1 is when the output drops to 10% of it's initial output measured at 30 seconds. Basically runtime doesn't mean it will be constant output for the published duration.

The other lumen output claim you might see is a theoretical one based on Cree's published datasheets of how the LEDs should perform and 'x' current.

3. LED types and technology.

Cree are the most well known and well used LED's in flashlights. But they offer a number of different types of LED.

Common ones are:

XM-L2
XP-G2
XP-L
MT-G2
XP-E2

As a rule, the smaller the LED is physically, the lower the lumen output, but the better the throw for a given reflector size.

The reason this is important is. If you want a pocket sized torch, then a 500 lumen XP-G2 will throw a beam further than a 1000 lumen XM-L2 using the same sized reflector/flashlight host. i.e. the lower lumen torch will light stuff up further away.

The trade off is, it'll light up a smaller area and the spill beam won't be as bright.




With regards to the ones you mention. EagleTac are a little sneak and their headlight outputs are always LED lumens. Although they do, on their website also show the ANSI FL1 OTF ratings too.

That said, EagleTac are pretty genuine with their claims. And their lights perform brilliantly.


Malkoff, is a much smaller maker. I'm not sure, but I think they don't declare what their ratings are based on. Most likely they are LED lumens or based on an educated guess using the data sheets. Scratch that, just had a look and they claim OTF measured, but not to any standard or how measured.

They are probably pretty genuine though and are a respected maker.

However it's worth noting the "premium" torches do cost a lot. The quality is often very good and good warranties. But they still use the same basic components as most others.

Big companies like Surefire and Maglite are often slow to react and generally aren't at the bleeding edge in terms of output or performance. And largely trade on their established reputation and market position. Led Lenser would also fall into this category. This isn't to say they are bad, because they are generally very good. But you do somewhat pay for the privilege.


For instance, and so you can keep open minded about this. I would highly advise looking at Convoy flashlights. These are well built and reputable. But a fraction of the price.

Solarforce is also another one worth looking at. Similar to many Surefire offerings, but at a completely different price point.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Malkoff uses an in house DIY sphere to measure out the front lumens. Malkoff will give a conservative lumen output number based on his measurements.

Bill