Lights should be expensive ---- Re: Why are Surefire lights expensive?

[MikeSalt]

This issue is complex to talk about here but life in US is expensive. Is going where Europe has been for a long time like $250 pair of shoes.
Another example a stainless steel watch bracelet for a European Rolex is $2000 a stainless steel bracelet for a Seiko is $200. The Seiko is just as good, the other $1800 needs to cover the expensive life in Europe. Anything service related in US is expensive take medical insurance from $8000 to $12000 a year. You read that correctly, eight thousands to twelve thousands. As their lights are made in US or at least that is what they say, so prices go up.

Granted, things are more expensive in Europe (EU protectionism fuels that to some extent), but the comparison between a Seiko and a Rolex is poor, because Rolex is a Veblen Good. Life isn't 10x as expensive as the US.

 

[ChibiM]

A flashlight should be reliable and do what you want it to do..

Being expensive doesnt mean they are more reliable per se.

 

[tbhracing]

Re: Lights should be expensive

To me the Maglite is an amazing story. Still made largely of US parts, assembled in a factory located in a state with choking costs due to whopping regulations and still as durable as those made long ago at prices pretty much the same as long ago.
Often cited as lagging, the Maglite is an instrument that has stuck by principles devised in the 1970's. Instead of attempting to compete with all things brighter and cheaper, Maglite has been on a slow path moving forward while still maintaining old fashioned value "assembled in the USA".

Great story and reminder, thank you.

 

[idleprocess]

Re: Lights should be expensive

I will confess that seeing the price these boutique makes fetch confuses me. Barrel, Hanko, Okluma; nevermind Cool Fall. They are certainly exquisite. Throw in Steel Flame clips fetching prices that bleeding-edge customs used to go for and my confusion grows. And I gather much like the $2000 shoes that English nobles allegedly treat themselves to, generally come with service and a warranty that's almost completely ideal.

But with DFM and high degrees of quality control baked into the production process being a thing at all levels of the market now, the OOB reliability that high prices used to signal is no longer a sure thing.

I find myself drawn to the makes like Emisar with a good balance of performance, quality, and cost. I'm not overly demanding of my lights : live in the city, work in an office, rarely truly need flashlights, thus don't need that extra reliability/ruggedness bump for a huge price premium.

But some like the exquisiteness of high-end customs, and some need (or simply are willing to pay for) the ruggedness of certain brands. And that's fine. It's just not for me since my usage doesn't dictate it.

 

[Bazar]

I re-read that thread. While I am not interested in examining that particular brand, the thought has occurred to me, what exactly is wrong with lights being expensive? The original thread was posted as if expense was a sin and cheapness was a virtue.Not a thing wrong with expensive, they should be. Expensive means someone put a lot of thought into it and a lot of work and a lot of refinement.Picture this, you are stuck in a cave somewhere, or on top of a mountain - do you want the cheapest Chimart special or a work of art?Me, I will take a Malkoff over anything - anywhere. One of his $200 models. I want fully potted and heat-sinked. A nice reflector that he has.I want it all. Price being no object. Well, do keep it under $1000, unless the thing has GPS capabilities as well.If you are going into a circumstance that demands utter reliability, expensive is having your light fail and you resorting to a backup or none at all.That's expensive.Remember that cave incident in Thai? I do wonder what lights they used during that experience.

Expensive absolutely means nothing.Price rises to meet demand. The highest lumen single 18650 flashlight IN THE WORLD is only 60 bucks. But the farthest throwing production light single 18650 (Acebeam T21, 180k candela, or, correct me if I'm wrong, 250 k candela 2x18350) is $150, expensive.Lights sell the same way every other thing on earth sells, nothing is overpriced unless it didn't meet the sales quota, nothing is underpriced unless it sells out before expected plan runs its course, and only the seller knows those things or can say those things unless it is overwhelmingly obvious (the Acbeam x70 is overpriced so can not meet at a minimum-correct me if you know more ) (the lumintop blf gt was underpriced for first under 200 dollar run, and sold out too fast, since then, raised it to the more appropriate 260 dollars)Now lumintop has again lowered the blf gt price because of sale halting from Astrolux mf04 being cheaper and farther throwing for about the same size, only size-limited people would buy it in their right mind. ///////// ///////// ///////// ///////// . You see, price is all about marketing, quality especially endurance and longevity have nothing to do with the price, you pay for what you get you never necessarily get what you pay for. Most profit is way, way above cost of production. MOP is means of production, and is a fixed value. So you can only produce so much per year and must price so that you sell it over that year. Another option-the usual, is pricing things above this value and putting it on sale once you are down to 10% left or once a new competitor takes away some of the market.///////// ///////// ///////// ///////// nothing will sell for being expensive. Good lights should be cheap, bad lights should be illegal to produce, just like bad cars, but if they were good lights would actually be more expensive, because people would have to buy them, and again as prior said, the MOP is fixed and only so many can be made or sold.

 

[Random Dan]

Expensive absolutely means nothing.Price rises to meet demand. The highest lumen single 18650 flashlight IN THE WORLD is only 60 bucks. But the farthest throwing production light single 18650 (Acebeam T21, 180k candela, or, correct me if I'm wrong, 250 k candela 2x18350) is $150, expensive.Lights sell the same way every other thing on earth sells, nothing is overpriced unless it didn't meet the sales quota, nothing is underpriced unless it sells out before expected plan runs its course, and only the seller knows those things or can say those things unless it is overwhelmingly obvious (the Acbeam x70 is overpriced so can not meet at a minimum-correct me if you know more ) (the lumintop blf gt was underpriced for first under 200 dollar run, and sold out too fast, since then, raised it to the more appropriate 260 dollars)Now lumintop has again lowered the blf gt price because of sale halting from Astrolux mf04 being cheaper and farther throwing for about the same size, only size-limited people would buy it in their right mind. ///////// ///////// ///////// ///////// . You see, price is all about marketing, quality especially endurance and longevity have nothing to do with the price, you pay for what you get you never necessarily get what you pay for. Most profit is way, way above cost of production. MOP is means of production, and is a fixed value. So you can only produce so much per year and must price so that you sell it over that year. Another option-the usual, is pricing things above this value and putting it on sale once you are down to 10% left or once a new competitor takes away some of the market.///////// ///////// ///////// ///////// nothing will sell for being expensive. Good lights should be cheap, bad lights should be illegal to produce, just like bad cars, but if they were good lights would actually be more expensive, because people would have to buy them, and again as prior said, the MOP is fixed and only so many can be made or sold.

Max brightness has very little to do with cost to produce. Off the shelf FET drivers are cheap and easy to use, and also will make the most lumens. Probably the biggest driver of cost is where it's made. USA companies like Surefire, Malkoff, HDS, etc could never compete with the prices of Chinese manufacturers because the cost of machining parts in the US is so much higher.

Sure market forces do play a role in profit per light vs quantity of lights sold, but generally more expensive lights will have some combination of higher quality components, better machining, better design, more reliability, better warranty. All of these things add to cost of production, not just lumens and throw.

 

[night.hoodie]

Expensive absolutely means nothing.Price rises to meet demand.

This. Most posters in this thread seem to be trying to justify high prices with quality and workmanship, but that argument will not hold. Case in point: Jaguars -at least once upon a time they were notoriously unreliable, but still expensive because of supply and demand. The competitive market sets the price of goods, and nothing else.

[the economic model of supply and demand] postulates that, holding all else equal, in a competitive market, the unit price for a particular good, or other traded item such as labor or liquid financial assets, will vary until it settles at a point where the quantity demanded (at the current price) will equal the quantity supplied (at the current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium for price and quantity transacted.

 

[Bazar]

You severely missed my point. Do not read one line, read the whole post, think further. The OP was basically stating that performance aspects are a significant role of pricing, they are not that was my point.
Even combined quality, machining (surefire vs emisar, emisar categorically wins), design, reliability and warranty are not related to price.
Besides the fact of demand, and production quantity, the mere price a a flashlight is in no way relatable to what you get.
You pay more what you get, it is absolutely foolish to think you get what you pay for, the semantics meaning: if two flashlights have the sa.e performance stats, 3rd party .measured, same size and everything else. If one is cheaper than the other you can not buy the more expensive and expect better reliability, that is a common fallacy.

 

[Bazar]

This. Most posters in this thread seem to be trying to justify high prices with quality and workmanship, but that argument will not hold. Case in point: Jaguars -at least once upon a time they were notoriously unreliable, but still expensive because of supply and demand. The competitive market sets the price of goods, and nothing else.

Thanks. This is very true.

Whilst brand name is important, my only Olight ever is also my only flashlight over 100 dollars to fail, and, I haven't gotten it resolved by the warranty.

In different universe, I have purchased budget items made by Chinese companies, like Fiio headphone amplifiers.
A Fiio Headphone amp is comparable to some German and other companies Amos that cost 500-1,500 dollars, but Fiio, a Chinese original product (it should be noted it isn't outsourced, but is a sourced product from China, just like Emisar) has comparable stats, for 175 dollars, a real fraction of the cost.
But my Audio-technica Amp broke, for 750 you might expect better, but nah, that's a fallacy.

 

[id30209]

I haven't read most of the posts here so this one might go sideways. Anyhow, few months ago i've bought A2 incan Aviator from the first owner. Used but not abused, worked well first 2 weeks and then LED's just stoped. Took off the head and installed on friends A2, works nice. Did the same with the tailcap, no problem. So my guess was failed driver in the body. Called SF, told them what's going on and reception wasn't good since i'm not original buyer and without the reiceipt. Called the guy from who i bought it and he gave me the name of the store. Went back to SF with this info. After 2 weeks they replied it's been confirmed that my A2 was bought in that store so i can get replacement parts. Since nothing left from old A2 in SF store they have deceided to send a new tailcap as their engineers figured it might be the problem. So i said what the heck, yes, nothing to loose. I doubt their troubleshooting since i've tested mine on other A and it worked flawlessly. Meantime i've got another response from SF about my 6 months old email about R1 battery availabilty in Europe. They said it's impossible to buy this stuff in EU but they will try to sort it out although they don't send cells overseas... To make a long story short, new A2 tailcap arrived and my aviator worked perfect with it! I was amazed. And battery is announced for delivery to!
So question about expensive flashlight, SF in other words is something i'll never understand in this case. I've bought A2 for 60$ (not in the store), got free tailcap and extra battery for R1 which they'll replace with new if any other part brakes. I had a talk with Fenix and Nitecore also but all efforts to replace parts were useless. Surefire beats them all. Pay once and for a decade (at least) enjoy in brand new parts, no matter what you do with the flashlight. Sorry but for me who use flashlights for work and living (not collecting) there are no questions about value of this brand.

 

[Bazar]

Id, worked well first 2 weeks and then LED's just stoped....em. So my question about expensive flashlight, SF in other words is something i'll never understand in this case. I've bought A2 for 60$ (not in the store), got free tailcap and extra battery for R1 which they'll replace with new if any other part brakes. I had a talk with Fenix and Nitecore also but all efforts to replace parts were useless. Surefire beats them all. Pay once and for a decade (at least) enjoy in brand new parts, no matter what you do with the flashlight. Sorry but for me who use flashlights for work and living (not collecting) there are no questions about value of this brand.

Well with the first point being your expensive flashlight broke, I think the point is settled then. Even good brands with timeless names are useless sometimes and still break. Paying for a warranty, he? I'd rather save my money for the next flashlight, just saying.
Coast flashlights are cheap. They sent me two lights even though when I had a problem with their flashlight it was still working and I got a brand new replacement, they said they would send a gift anyways, and they did.

This isn't a warranty debate, warranty doesn't mean much when a flashlight should work anyways. Not that Surfire isn't one of the most reliable brands, and they are, it's just, extra money in them doesn't increase anything. It's just percieved value, especially with domestic Chinese companies making a name for themselves with advanced tech and high-quality items produced with the added advantage of fast production.

By the way, machining in China is by no means cheaper than US, it is just faster. Faster=more product=higher supply with equal demand, and the further economics point is a change in target market meaning more people can afford your product making it just as profitable. (Otherwise extra product simply is a mistake of producing to many for your market, reducing cost to meet sales.)

 

[bykfixer]

Machining is not cheaper in China?
Huh, I did not know that.

Somehow I figured cost of machinery, (all costs include), labor, cost of facility, environmental concerns and other things factored into the cost of machining something.

Maybe not.

 

[bigburly912]

Machining is not cheaper in China?
Huh, I did not know that.

Somehow I figured cost of machinery, (all costs include), labor, cost of facility, environmental concerns and other things factored into the cost of machining something.

Maybe not.

It's only cheaper by about 5% overall or at least it was in 2016 when I left the manufacturing process. Labor is cheap there but specialty jobs really aren't that much different.

 

[id30209]

Bazar, warranty means a lot. I'm sick of it having two the same flashlight at home, 1 operative and other dead. The fact i'm in Europe is also other factor, big one i'd say. There are no manufacturer who will have the same deal with consumers all around the world, none but surefire. I'm flying all around the globe due to work and broken flashlight isn't option here. And btw only issue i had was that one written above. So if by accident something happens i'll go to SF store without any worry of being rejected (at that store somwhere on the globe). That battery i've mentioned was ordered in Germany but not because it collapsed but because i just wanted extra cell for safety, my own comodity. And i don't live in Germany btw. So try something like that with other brands...a hint, i don't think so. Regarding machining, well guys, as a true consumer i care only about "what will i get" as a final deal and what else through extended period of time.