Most powerful commercially available portable HID spotlight?

[XeRay]

Thank you Matt.

Seems like as the newer technology from LED's and LEP's closes in on making HID IRRELEVANT (sp) in nearly every category, IR seems to be the one single category usage case where it still may have some relevance, so thank you for bringing the IR capabilities to my attention. Of course, it's easy to forget about IR and how useful it is to military/police, etc, when you are just the average guy who likes bright lights.

Other HID's also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well (IR filters are available). The other additional option are LED's that are specific for IR output, they are already in use by the military etc.

 

[badtziscool]

This has been an interesting thread to read through. Lots of valid points. My $0.02.

There's no doubt that LED technology has come a long way. And yes, there are some LED throwers that are currently available (using the SBT-90.2) that are nearly able to match the performance as these high grade HID systems. I think it's somewhat flawed to compare a manufacturer like Acebeam and Astrolux to Xevision or Polaron. Their target markets are completely different and thus design philosophies are different as well. I personally would not depend on Acebeam and Astrolux for my lighting duties if I was in a remote location or in a hostile environment where I have to have to have to HAVE TO depend on my light for my own survival. At the same time, I would never purchase Xevision or Polaron lights to take my kids to the park in the evening. Well.... I would if money was no object but I am a flashaholic. And I'm sure if Acebeam and Astrolux had to market their products to the customers that Xevision targets, they would be much more expensive and vice versa if Xevision had to target Acebeam's market.

Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.

 

[DayofReckoning]

This has been an interesting thread to read through. Lots of valid points. My $0.02.

There's no doubt that LED technology has come a long way. And yes, there are some LED throwers that are currently available (using the SBT-90.2) that are nearly able to match the performance as these high grade HID systems. I think it's somewhat flawed to compare a manufacturer like Acebeam and Astrolux to Xevision or Polaron. Their target markets are completely different and thus design philosophies are different as well. I personally would not depend on Acebeam and Astrolux for my lighting duties if I was in a remote location or in a hostile environment where I have to have to have to HAVE TO depend on my light for my own survival. At the same time, I would never purchase Xevision or Polaron lights to take my kids to the park in the evening. Well.... I would if money was no object but I am a flashaholic. And I'm sure if Acebeam and Astrolux had to market their products to the customers that Xevision targets, they would be much more expensive and vice versa if Xevision had to target Acebeam's market.

Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.

Badtziscool, I agree with some of your points. However, what we can do when discussing strictly performance, rather than use generalized terms like "High Grade HID" and the name brands associated like XeVision/Polarion, we can actually break down the numbers here and see what how the best LED's compare to the current HID's on the market. I believe the numbers will show a very different story than what you are telling.


Polarion PH50 4800 Lumens 1.5K Throw MSRP $1995
Polarion PH40 4000 Lumens 1.2 KM Throw MSRP $2095
XeVision XE-LX50 5300 Lumens 1.49 kM Throw MSRP $2298
XeVison XE-LX70 7500 Lumens 3 KM+ Throw MSRP $2587
XeVision XE-LX70 w/t SuperHead 7500 Lumens? 4.5 KM+Throw MSRP $?

Note LED numbers are Turn on and ANSI @30 seconds. Take note the BLFGT90 will sustain over 4000 lumens operation continuous.

Acebeam K75VN 5200/4800 Lumens 2.64KM Throw MSRP$279
LUMINTOP BLF GT90 7000/4970 Lumens 2.72KM Throw MSRP$349
Astrolux MF05 7000 Lumens? 3 KM Throw MSRP $569 3.1

Couple of points to make here.

(a.) The numbers show that an LED, the SBT-90.2, is not only able to match some of those "high grade HID's", it can actually exceed some of them, and outthrow by a bit.

(b.) Heat is the biggest issue facing LEDs, and that is being addressed with active cooling now, and it's going to being to become a standard for the highest end lights from now on, more out of necessity than chasing numbers. As cooling gets better, we can slowly chip away at this "sustained output" advantage that some HID models have.

(c.) I don't consider this to be a "flawed" comparison. Rather, it's taking the best of one technology, and pitting it against another. LED vs HID. We are talking numbers here, and these numbers are not exactly a direct comparison between the different lights, but rather their performance alone. I understand they are two totally different lights, and two different markets, completely. And I also understand that when it comes to mission critical situations, it's the expensive HID's that will be chosen (but for how long). This thread is really more about a reality check to HID manufacturers of how close LED's are getting in terms of sheer performance. Their intended market and who buys what is an entire other subject.

(d.) Not every use case is just about throw distance. Massive amounts of light output at more reasonsable ranges is needed in many situations. The large, multi emitter LED's absolutley destroy all current HIDs on total sustained output. Furthermore, as output get higher and higher with newer multi emitter models, they will be able to start throwing very far due to sheer grunt in output. Single emitters will not be required for 1mil candela plus once the output gets high enough.

With that said, on output and throw, I believe we are just one single emitter, and one good cooling solution away from having a true "HID killer". Give it a few more years, and we'll bump this thread.

 

[DayofReckoning]

Other HID's also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well (IR filters are available). The other additional option are LED's that are specific for IR output, they are already in use by the military etc.

Other HID's, like the Xe-Vision/Lemax also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well, and still provide an actual useful beam, unlike the extremely limited laser like beam of the Maxabeam.

 

[Alex1234]

I have the Imalent R90TS. 36,000 lumens and 1 million CD at turn on which definitely surpasses most HIDs. Now obviously it can only maintain 36,000 lumens for one minute but in person its insanely impressive for that one minute. It really is a well built light. the fans actually do a heck of a lot to keep the light cool.




I also have a Maxtoch L2k LEP. I measured 2.1 million CD

maxtoch L2k LEP by Alex Littig, on Flickr

 

[DayofReckoning]

Alex, I apologize for not including the the Imalent R90TS in my comparison. That looks extremely impressive. The LEP beamshot is amazing as well.

Obviously, every usage case is different, but in the real world, and real world applications, I almost have to question how relevant and useful long running continuous output really is. Do you leave your light on for extended periods of time? When you activate your lights turbo, is it with the intent of seeing maximum amount of light right away, or do you do it so that you can have the maximum output for long periods of time? Furthermore, I would make the argument that the instant full output of LED's actually make it a more useful tool versus waiting for the warm up of an HID. The very best models on the market take at least 10 seconds or more. Instant full power then a drop down, in my opinion, is more useful in real world applications than having low instant output, waiting for warm up, then maintaining a higher output for an extended period. The LED has already let you see what you need to see at full brightness, while the HID is still warming up.

This thread has had a lot conjecture without real numbers, with a little bit of myth thrown in too. Luckily, we've been able to break the numbers down here and see that the story is a bit different than what's being told when it comes to LED vs HID.

 

[Matt@PeakBeam]

Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?

 

[DayofReckoning]

Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?

Hi Matt, I was not aware of that, so I do consider that a big plus the Maxa beam has over other HID's. I know from experience that it can be frustrating with my Lemax LX50 waiting for the lamp to full heat, even though it takes only several seconds, when one is used to the instant max output of LED's.

I do not own a Maxa Beam, and have not used one, no, but I have been aware of this light for many years, and have seen more beamshots, user reports and "reviews" from fellow flashaholics, and videos than I can count. I have also seen many comparisons with other HID lights in direct comparisons.

In fact, I had an older generation model on my Ebay watch list that I was very close to purchasing not long ago (it needed a battery, so selling price was cheap). Didn't pull the trigger as I was afraid of having to invest more money in it than what I wanted.

It think it's an amazing light, for it's time. But I also believe there are better choices on the market right now that provide a more USEFUL light when it comes to real world applications. Lights like the Lemax/XE-Light can provide more than enough range for nearly every application, and still provide a very wide, useful beam with lots of useable, workable spill, versus the laser like beam of the Maxa Beam which really is best suited for long range illumination only. However, as you pointed out, the Maxa Beam has instant full output, and that is a big advantage.

 

[Alex1234]

I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.

 

[XeRay]

Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?

Polarion, Lemax, XeVision XeRay units are not full 100% output at "instant on" about 60% output at "instant on" then full perceived "ramped up" output within about 10-15 seconds. All of these units are hot restrike as well.
Only "short arc" has full 100% output at starting. Hot restrike only seems a problem for some if not most or all of the cheaper Asian made HID units in the past.

As for most if not all cooling fan implementations seen to date on LED lights, they are so far more of a "band-aid" to TRY to manage the heat. If it can't effectively pull the very localized heat generated at the source (at the LED base), then the high power setting run times will always be extremely limited.
To do otherwise requires a lot of sophisticated engineering and more advanced heat management techniques than what's primarily found in these Asian made consumer grade lights. These performance enhancements add a lot of cost to the engineering, prototyping and manufacturing. Typical Asian (primarily Chinese) makers are always substantially compromising optimal performance to keep costs down and profits up.

It's my understanding that LEP (Laser Excited Phosphor) doesn't currently provide a very wide light spectrum (color rendering). Perhaps that can be improved in the future. Blue light has significant drawbacks for the performance of the human eye.

 

[DayofReckoning]

Polarion, Lemax, XeVision XeRay units are not full 100% output at "instant on" about 60% output at "instant on" then full perceived "ramped up" output within about 10-15 seconds. All of these units are hot restrike as well.
Only "short arc" has full 100% output at starting. Hot restrike only seems a problem for some if not most or all of the cheaper Asian made HID units in the past.

As for most if not all cooling fan implementations seen to date on LED lights, they are so far more of a "band-aid" to TRY to manage the heat. If it can't effectively pull the very localized heat generated at the source (at the LED base), then the high power setting run times will always be extremely limited.
To do otherwise requires a lot of sophisticated engineering and more advanced heat management techniques than what's primarily found in these Asian made consumer grade lights. These performance enhancements add a lot of cost to the engineering, prototyping and manufacturing. Typical Asian (primarily Chinese) makers are always substantially compromising optimal performance to keep costs down and profits up.

It's my understanding that LEP (Laser Excited Phosphor) doesn't currently provide a very wide light spectrum (color rendering). Perhaps that can be improved in the future. Blue light has significant drawbacks for the performance of the human eye.

90+CRI LEP's have been available for a while now

https://www.acebeam.com/w30

 

[alpg88]

not that long ago i bought a really good thrower, e10, but i find it next to useless in real world conditions with its very narrow, little spill beam, LEP seem to have even narrower beam and even less spill. maxabeam at least has adjustable focus, it can be a flooder, thou beam pattern is pretty ugly, but it does the job.

 

[DayofReckoning]

Maxabeam doesn't fit in your jacket pocket, as cost's 8 times as much. LEP also can use diffusers to produce a more flood beam. To be fair, Maxabeam can as well.

Different products and target audience though.

 

[XeRay]

Maxabeam at least has adjustable focus, it can be a flooder, thou beam pattern is pretty ugly, but it does the job.

The total lumens are relatively low, so that when the adjusted focus is spread out (floody) there is minimal throw to be had, then there is the dark "donut hole" aspect as well.

Different products and target audience though.

All of these different issues and benefits with each technology, it all depends on your "Mission" (application). Which is the most suitable to the ACTUAL needs and wants of the intended user ? Then there are budget constraints as well to be considered.

Its no different than guns, there are rifles of different calibers, from a 22 to a 300 magnum or even an elephant gun, different shotguns and pistols. I prefer 30-06 (scoped or open sights both) 95% of the time for big game (Mule Deer, Elk or Moose), 300 magnum for Mtn Goat. (longer range - flatter shooting). 22LR or 22 magnum for target shooting and "varmints", 12ga pump for upland game and waterfowl and 9mm for pistols (self protection and target practice).,

 

[XeRay]

Badtziscool, I agree with some of your points. However, what we can do when discussing strictly performance, rather than use generalized terms like "High Grade HID" and the name brands associated like XeVision.

minor corrections made below from your quoted post above.

XeVision XV-LX50 5300 Lumens MSRP $2298
XeVison XV-LX70 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $2587
XeVision XV-LX70 SP SuperPower Head 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $3,295.00

We do NOT actively promote the Superpower head version, only by special order.

 

[DayofReckoning]

minor corrections made below from your quoted post above.

XeVision XV-LX50 5300 Lumens MSRP $2298
XeVison XV-LX70 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $2587
XeVision XV-LX70 SP SuperPower Head 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $3,295.00

We do NOT actively promote the Superpower head version, only by special order.

Sorry about that, truly wasn't trying to misquote or under-represent your products.

I have been quite critical of HID in this thread, obviously. However, in the current market of HID's that are available, if a party absolutely requires HID and nothing else, it is my opinion that the Xe-Ray/Lemax LX50/LX70 are the finest HID's on the market at this time.

 

[idleprocess]

Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.

HID is decidedly heat-insensitive relative to the LEDs of today which is a significant performance advantage in almost anything as small and relatively handy as a <12" diameter spotlight formfactor. The capsule itself is made of high-quality glass to resist the intense pressures and temperatures associated with striking and maintaining that arc. Ballasts are also made with high-power components using mature designs with the good designs packaged in housings that are basically heatsinks to minimize component degradation.

LED on the other hand has to operate at something closer to room temperature. Yes, 85C binning and the ability to last longer at higher temps is improving LED performance under real-world conditions. But a handheld device only has so much volume/mass for passive thermal management and only so much power margin for active thermal management. Also, regardless of how the heat is sunk to air, the more complex the scheme the less the you don't have to think about it casual environmental resistance of the modern LED flashlight.

I expect LED to steadily creep into the middle ground over time - especially as their sensitivity to temperature declines over time with successive improvements in thermal ruggedness - but the inherent challenges of heat management, and their 2D emitting surface vs arc lamps' semi 1D emitting surface will prove challenging in applications where extremes of throw are a critical design goal. But that middle ground sure is yielding - pocket LED throwers, automotive headlights in formfactors comparable to bixenon units, stadium lighting, airliner landing lights, highway light standards, parking lot lights - and probably some other applications that HID and MHI used to dominate.

I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.

HID is inherently more expensive than LED with its high-energy physics in the capsule and ballast which must ignite the arc with kilovolt DC pulse(s) then transition to stable operation with AC. Contrast with LED: low-voltage DC, operates at near-room temperatures, effectively zero UV, lower power demands, far smaller formfactors, can trivially operate at many brightness levels, and is insensitive to on/off cycling.

 

[DayofReckoning]

The Acebeam K75's reflector is flawless and excellent. It produces an incredibly intense beam that is significantly more intense than the LX50's, while still providing ample spill. The LX50 has a larger, more impressive spill area though, but the beam is much less intense, and throw is much less as well, even when the K75 is fully heat saturated. The K75's reflector is also significantly larger than the LX50's.

Overall output is close on the Acebeam K75 at turn on versus the Lemax at full brightness, and when K75 is fully saturated with heat, is slightly less than the Lemax. It is not a large difference, and one that you have to actually look for to notice. A quick 30 second shutoff and cool down and you can go back to max brightness.

The most impressive part of the K75 is it's 3 lumen moonlight mode, which is easily access with a long press, and is soft and dim enough for reading a map, or a late trip to the bathroom. All within a very small and compact form factor, of high quality and integrity. the $270 price tag and 5 year warranty didn't hurt either. I've been on the fence about getting mine modded by Skylumen for even more performance.

 

[DayofReckoning]

I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.

Please report back on the Firefox FF5 Alex. It looks to be a sizeable upgrade to the FF4. Though the small compact nature of the FF4 could be an advantage. The best thing about the Firefox lights is the battery carrier and the ability to use off the shelf 18650's, no proprietary battery packs. You are absolutely right that it is an incredible value for the money.

 

[Alex1234]

Please report back on the Firefox FF5 Alex. It looks to be a sizeable upgrade to the FF4. Though the small compact nature of the FF4 could be an advantage. The best thing about the Firefox lights is the battery carrier and the ability to use off the shelf 18650's, no proprietary battery packs. You are absolutely right that it is an incredible value for the money.

It would be cool if there was a short arc bulb that could be used in the FF5. The throw would be insane. I know its possible. I remember when Ra made the Maxablaster, i dont remember if it was him or someone else that also make a handheld shortarc flashlight in a similar size as the FF5.