Recent Mania w/ Tactical mega-SST* lights - not seeing it...

[Closet_Flashaholic]

At the risk of losing my flashaholic status...

I am looking at all of the recent announcements re: SST50/90 "tactical" lights and am wondering... why? I just wonder with the amount of R&D money invested in these lights, by multiple companies, if it makes business sense, Is there a market large enough to get back that ROI. I think some of the companies risk forgetting who their core-customers (where they make the money) are.

1). It's unlikely that any of them will supplant Surefire's hold on the US Military market, given that most of these are made by non-US companies

2) There may be a market in what I would call the secondary LEO market, but how big can that be?

3) Us, flashaholics. That market is potentially even smaller than #2.

For me, I don't have much interest in these lights for a very simple reason: they don't take standard batteries. I have no (read absolutely no) interest in buying lights that require proprietary chargers/batteries. No thanks. AA & 123 form factors and 18650 is the most I will consider and even that is used in an Ol M20 - that does also provide a '123 battery solution as well.

I was holding out to see what the maelstrom would be, but after seeing it I am probably going to go with a TK30/40 - strictly because of the batteries.

:shrug:Custom proprietary battery solutions :shrug:

If they can't get the desired light output/efficiency with standard battery solutions, count me (and my $$$'s) out.

Am I the odd-man out here?

 

[Dioni]

I agree with much of what you said, but IMHO I consider that: They need it!

These multiple companies simply need these investments to survive in the market by the fact of compulsive people. Not all who buy these products has a real sense of what they are buying. There is time to discuss about why Surefire does not use the more powerful LEDs, and the answer is that they can't fully rely on the use of these. Yet, people always want more and more power and many don't even know what they are buying. This is most clear to us flashaholics, but not so much for other people.

I.E. if these companies don't make it, they don't sell!

Best regards,
Dioni

PS: Sorry my "ingrish"

 

[kakster]

The Maelstrom 1800 takes CR123/R123.

1800 lumens in an M6 size package is a very attractive proposition.

 

[syncytial]

I am looking at all of the recent announcements re: SST50/90 "tactical" lights and am wondering... why? I just wonder with the amount of R&D money invested in these lights, by multiple companies, if it makes business sense, Is there a market large enough to get back that ROI. I think some of the companies risk forgetting who their core-customers (where they make the money) are.

Don't forget that not every company is huge, or investing lots of money in fundamental R&D. Some suppliers are quite small, essentially using contract manufacturers to produce short runs based on established products, and expecting to successfully ride the "waves" of enthusiasm for new products. The actual quantities produced of some products might be surprisingly small, often limited by the resources of the company as much as the market. Couple that with a world-wide market and product promotion via sites like CPF and you don't need large populations of buyers in a specific location. Consider the lack of dedicated brick and mortar flashlight stores. I expect that many of the flashlight companies we patronize would have difficulty scaling up to satisfy any large-scale demand.

It's unlikely that any of them will supplant Surefire's hold on the US Military market, given that most of these are made by non-US companies

I don't expect Surefire to go away, however the US military does purchase products manufactured outside the US, often through a US middleman. There are other militaries too.

There may be a market in what I would call the secondary LEO market, but how big can that be?

I think the world-wide emergency services and security market is very large, and has grown immensely in the last decade. A very quick Google search pulled up a number of 800,000 "law enforcement" officers in the US alone, as of 2008 (additional research needed to assure accuracy, but it should be OK as an order of magnitude starting point). Add other emergency services and allied public and private organizations, throughout the world, and it's a non-trivial number.

There was a post here suggesting the Calgary Police Service was ordering ~ 2000 TK20 lights. That doesn't suggest the next step would be to equip every officer with an SST-90 "tactical light-cannon", but it does hint at the possibility of agencies deploying equipment from non-traditional suppliers.

Us, flashaholics. That market is potentially even smaller than #2.

We may be a relatively small market (~11K active and ~94K historical CPF members) but we are potentially influential, as a source of information and as a catalyst for activity in the broader market. For some sellers, we're enough of a market.

For me, I don't have much interest in these lights for a very simple reason: they don't take standard batteries. I have no (read absolutely no) interest in buying lights that require proprietary chargers/batteries. No thanks. AA & 123 form factors and 18650 is the most I will consider and even that is used in an Ol M20 - that does also provide a '123 battery solution as well.

Proprietary battery packs are common, perhaps even the norm, in a lot of equipment, from drills to radios. That doesn't seem to impede sales. Especially with lights that require multiple large cells, the intrinsic safety and convenience advantages of a properly engineered battery pack, especially when used by a population with little or no interest in the underlying technology, makes sense. How many laptops are sold that will run off standard primary cells?

Am I the odd-man out here?

We, as a group, are all odd-men out! Couple that with individual choices that most consumers and agencies don't even consider, or aren't aware of as possibilities, and you end up with the situation you're trying to understand.

- Syncytial

 

[Bronco]

For me, I don't have much interest in these lights for a very simple reason: they don't take standard batteries...If they can't get the desired light output/efficiency with standard battery solutions, count me (and my $$$'s) out.

It's okay if you don't like. These lights are pushing the envelope of LED technology, and quite frankly, at the current point in time the vast majority of "standard" battery configurations cannot safely meet the demands required by such lights. Not everyone is comfortable sitting out on the bleeding edge of technology, and if you talk to MattK or David, I don't think they're harboring any delusions that these units are going to ever see any high sales volumes.

 

[Closet_Flashaholic]

Proprietary battery packs are common, perhaps even the norm, in a lot of equipment, from drills to radios. That doesn't seem to impede sales. Especially with lights that require multiple large cells, the intrinsic safety and convenience advantages of a properly engineered battery pack, especially when used by a population with little or no interest in the underlying technology, makes sense. How many laptops are sold that will run off standard primary cells?

Well, I guess that is kind of my point though. I specifically don't buy a lot of devices that use proprietary batteries - when there are competing products that use "standard" batteries. A case in point is that I purchased a new camera over the holidays and I removed from consideration several cameras that used proprietary Li-Ion batteries and chose one that had similar specifications but used AA batteries.

My problem seems to be with Lithium batteries specifically since that technology "wears out" in ~3 years time whether you use them or not. Almost guaranteeing the manufacturer additional high-profit margins on replacements. The drills I purchase still use NiCad (thankfully) and laptops - well one can purchase 12v adapters and also 3rd party batteries.

It seems the HID guys have been dealing with this for years, so it looks like, for me, I will not be purchasing too many lights this year if all that's new is SST* tactical monster lights. I need a light that I can carry not one that has me running to the nearest car or 120VAC outlet to charge when the battery is depleted.

So it's just me.. the rest of the world seems to be fine with it. Thanks to all for the interesting points.

 

[grunscga]

[...]when there are competing products that use "standard" batteries.

I think that answers your question right there. There are no competing products to the lights you're thinking of except HIDs...which all run on proprietary battery packs.

Yes, many of the single MC-E lights can run on primaries, and a top-end single MC-E light can compete with a low-to-middle SST-* light, but when you get into 4+ amp draw, the laws of physics take over, and primaries literally can't cut it, without huge numbers of parallel cells, and the associated risk of

You are of course free to never buy anything brighter than a single MC-E powered light, but for those that want more than 500 or so lumens OTF..."exotic rechargeables" or proprietary packs are currently the only way to supply that kind of power.

Also note that many of the problems with the SST-* lights are caused by their relatively low efficiency. If Cree ever releases an XR-G, then I wouldn't think an MC-G would be that far behind, and if that happens, then you might be able to get SST-50 brightness out of a CR123A-driven light.

 

[syncytial]

These lights are pushing the envelope of LED technology, and quite frankly, at the current point in time the vast majority of "standard" battery configurations cannot safely meet the demands required by such lights.

Very true, especially when the lights will be used by "non-flashaholics".

I specifically don't buy a lot of devices that use proprietary batteries - when there are competing products that use "standard" batteries.

In many applications, opting for standard battery options makes a lot of sense. In the case of high-output lights, the options will be dramatically reduced if we are limited to standard primary cells. Even the 18650 cell is not a standard mass-market item, except as a component within battery packs engineered for safety and convenience.

For smaller lights, I've chosen to (mostly) standardize on a few common battery types, but it's currently unrealistic to expect to be able to do so for lights at the 2K+ lumen mark, given current technology.

My problem seems to be with Lithium batteries specifically since that technology "wears out" in ~3 years time whether you use them or not. Almost guaranteeing the manufacturer additional high-profit margins on replacements.

That's not necessarily a problem from the manufacturer's point of view. The current consumer electronics market is increasing geared to a product life cycle of three years, or less, for many goods.

It seems the HID guys have been dealing with this for years, so it looks like, for me, I will not be purchasing too many lights this year if all that's new is SST* tactical monster lights.

Merely because there is a small flurry of excitement at the release of LED lights with 2K+ lumen outputs does not mean development and sales of smaller, less-expensive lights will stop. I expect continued announcements of new lights suitable for purchase by individuals that don't need a monster light.

So it's just me.. the rest of the world seems to be fine with it.

You brought up concerns about the market viability of these new high-output LEDs - I expect that some manufacturers and dealers will survive or thrive with these products as part of their portfolios, and some won't - business as usual. The companies bringing these products to market have either done their market research properly, or they haven't, with the expected consequences.

You also brought up your preference for using standard cells - that's OK, many feel the same. It just means that the new high-output LED lights, as currently engineered, aren't for you. No problem, providing you don't need the functionality offered by these lights and competing technologies.

Many people feel much as you do, but draw the line at standard alkaline batteries, or perhaps they've accepted NiCds or NiMhs, but not lithium based batteries, except in cell phones and laptops... well, you see where that's going.

Everyone gets to make his/her own choices. There is no single "best" battery or approach to lights. Thank goodness for that!

 

[LEDninja]

Elektrolumens who sell to lots of LEOs often comment they require a MINIMUM 2 HOUR RUNTIME. Most of the "Tactical" lights do not have that.

Most of the "Tactical" lights require rechargeable batteries. Try recharging batteries on a hilltop in Afghanistan without giving away your position to the Taliban.

5-6 years ago "Police" lights were all the rage. Now its "Tactical" with much quoting of mil-spec.
A few lights may be sold to individual soldiers but to sell to the military proper an NSN (NATO stock number) is required. That is required not just for the US military, but for all 22 NATO countries.
Surefire will provide a list of NSN numbers.
http://www.surefire.com/nsn_ordering
Maglite will provide a list of NSN numbers,
http://maglite.com/publicsafety_mil_nsn.asp
Fulton even puts theirs on the front page of their catalog.
http://www.fultonindoh.com/images/documents/Government&MilitaryLightsBrochure.pdf
So if a "Tactical" light manufacturer can not provide an NSN number, they are NOT selling their lights to any of the military of the 22 NATO countries.

 

[recDNA]

I think that answers your question right there. There are no competing products to the lights you're thinking of except HIDs...which all run on proprietary battery packs.

Yes, many of the single MC-E lights can run on primaries, and a top-end single MC-E light can compete with a low-to-middle SST-* light, but when you get into 4+ amp draw, the laws of physics take over, and primaries literally can't cut it, without huge numbers of parallel cells, and the associated risk of

You are of course free to never buy anything brighter than a single MC-E powered light, but for those that want more than 500 or so lumens OTF..."exotic rechargeables" or proprietary packs are currently the only way to supply that kind of power.

Also note that many of the problems with the SST-* lights are caused by their relatively low efficiency. If Cree ever releases an XR-G, then I wouldn't think an MC-G would be that far behind, and if that happens, then you might be able to get SST-50 brightness out of a CR123A-driven light.

I read that over and over again and it drives me crazy. I don't know about the SST-90 but every review here of single SST-50 lights mentions an MC-E light that outperforms it. Which HIGH end SST-50 beats a high end MC-E let alone the low to mid end you speak of.

 

[grunscga]

I was under the impression that the Thrunite Catapult out-threw any of the MC-E / P7 lights that are currently available from major manufacturers (custom hot-rods don't count). Additionally, I was under the impression that total OTF output was greater than or equal to said MC-E / P7 lights. I could be wrong on those counts, but considering that the Catapult doesn't drive the SST-50 anywhere close to maximum spec (3.2A drive current, I believe), I feel confident that the next wave of SST-50 lights at 4+ amps (from Jetbeam, 4sevens, Olight, etc.) will easily exceed what either the MC-E or P7 is capable of, if driven within spec.

Most of the SST-50 lights released so far are simple drop-in replacements for another LED, which is going to give decidedly sub-par performance, like dropping an MC-E into a light that used to use an XR-E. Note, however, that most of these sub-par lights will in fact run on primaries, so they really aren't involved in this discussion (which was a rant concerning lights that can't run on primaries).

 

[Stress_Test]

Regarding the initial post.

I think I'm getting similar feelings regarding the seeming emphasis/explosion of the mega-power "tactical" lights. Not so much for the battery issue, but the general intended usage and application of such lights.

Okay, there may be a few guys on this board that would use such lights in the line of duty, but it seems the majority end up debating and nitpicking endlessly about the various tactical usefulness of these lights, when most of us will never use them for anything more serious than dog walking.

How many PAGES of discussion were there on the pre-flash "issue" of the Quark lights, which so many people claimed was unacceptable for a tactical light. Maybe, but it's moot if you're not a SWAT or SEAL or similar. Don't get me wrong, buying such lights for fun and wow-factor alone is cool and everything, it just seems like there's WAY too much emphasis on "tactical" among us who are in reality just casual users.

I guess what puts it in perspective for me was that I've been reading all the old flashlight story collections (courtesy of Carrot). In those stories, a lot of the fun and usefulness is being had with fairly basic lights, not mega-power eye burners.

Not sure I had a point with this long ramble, but I guess I just wanted to say I sympathize with you Closet_Flashaholic and others who feel the same way.


BTW, if you want an antidote to mega-power light mania, get yourself a Quark Mini AA if you don't have one already. It's a simple, USEFUL little throwback to the good 'ol days (you know, like 3 or 4 years ago )

 

[recDNA]

I was under the impression that the Thrunite Catapult out-threw any of the MC-E / P7 lights that are currently available from major manufacturers (custom hot-rods don't count). Additionally, I was under the impression that total OTF output was greater than or equal to said MC-E / P7 lights. I could be wrong on those counts, but considering that the Catapult doesn't drive the SST-50 anywhere close to maximum spec (3.2A drive current, I believe), I feel confident that the next wave of SST-50 lights at 4+ amps (from Jetbeam, 4sevens, Olight, etc.) will easily exceed what either the MC-E or P7 is capable of, if driven within spec.

Most of the SST-50 lights released so far are simple drop-in replacements for another LED, which is going to give decidedly sub-par performance, like dropping an MC-E into a light that used to use an XR-E. Note, however, that most of these sub-par lights will in fact run on primaries, so they really aren't involved in this discussion (which was a rant concerning lights that can't run on primaries).

I went back and re-read the Catapult review again in detail and it does look like a cool light. If it weren't for the lack of memory I might buy one. Starting out at 700 lumens every time isn't the best idea IMO. If it had a bezel ring (like the Eagletacs) to set output before turning it one I'd really want one. Despite the lower throw numbers the Jetbeam wins in my book due to its advanced features but if you basically want it just for high power the Catapult looks pretty impressive.

 

[grunscga]

Oh, I completely agree with you; I'd buy an M1X over a Catapult every time, because of the UI. I was seriously considering an M1X before I saw this thread.

I was just using the Catapult as a response to the OP's question, because it's the first of the "big boys" (that I know of, anyway) that really needs to use "exotic rechargeable" batteries due to the current draw. Primaries can't safely deliver the kind of current required to really drive either of the SST line, at least not without setting up the batteries in a series+parallel configuration. To be honest, it's not that SSTs are special--multi-MC-E setups also draw too much current for primaries. It really is just a question of physics.

To get back to the OP, it's a trade-off: is the use of primaries more important, or is maximum output more important? Everyone will answer that question differently, and I'm glad there are manufacturers out there to serve both camps.