ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

milkyspit

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OutdoorIdiot said:
Milkyspit,

Thank you. Detailed information doesn't get much better than that!

I'm sure photographs of your tailcap springs can only help matters, if you can find the time.

I also happen to agree with your ethical observations about the value of this thread, tempered with the need to not get carried away with assumptions about certain brands/models.

My mistake! The super stiff spring is at the HEAD end of the light. This is a technicality, though... it had the same effect as described in above posts.

Here are a couple photos...

My PM6 HA3 LED disassembled. Super stiff spring at the head end. Remember, I cut off AT LEAST HALF of it... taking another look while shooting these photos, I'm thinking I actually cut away more!
img-cpf-pm6-head-spring-overhead.jpg


Closer look. Note how thick the wire is relative to the positive battery contact point, for example!
img-cpf-pm6-head-spring-closeup.jpg


Not sure if this will help anyone, but hopefully the photos will give some idea of just how thick and heavy this spring was. Again, no intent to malign Pelican, Battery Station, Kevin, ...or anyone else! Just sharing.
 

Icebreak

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by the river
Topper -

I got one of your data points wrong so (maybe trying to make up for that mistake) I'm posting some enviromental data points from you to gather that up a bit.

Newbie -

I guess it was concrete not asphalt.

Stuff Topper Typed:

"I ran one down in a single cell light and waited several hours so both cells started out at room temp."

"The PM6 was on the ground and about 6 feet from a white plastic fence."

"Mine was placed on a concrete driveway."

"I got tired of standing outside in the sun and heat."

"It gets pretty humid here…
"

All -

I'm still leaning toward the idea that this event is a random cell that has a chemical or structural flaw with chances of 1 in 100,000 or greater of exploding under just the right circumstances.

However, the fact that Topper could replicate it using ZTS to get a 40%/100% 2XCR123 combination makes me think there can be some predictability. Whether other methods are better or not, that BS is using ZTS on all their CR123s is a fairly massive effort. Good on 'em.

It's also possible that the chances are greater than 1 in 100,000 that in flashlights because we simply don't hear about all the events. Joe outdoorsman finds a blown up CR123 driven flashlight in the back of his truck and it's likely he'll contact the company, get a nice explanation and a new light then go on about his business.

I continue to enjoy this community effort to indentify the culprit(s).

Side Note:

Many members have noted all the different chemical make ups of lithium batteries. I'm a little concerned that eventually the gov may insist on all lithium batteries being banned from air frieght. I can't remember which one it is but one of them has an active ingrediant that can eat through aluminum. It's the big one in a hard can. Well, I can see that but not all lithiums should be banned.

Remember Kevin at BS said we could turn in Lithium AAs and trade them out for BunnyBatteries? Well I've got them here, there and younder installed in various appropriate lights. I had 8 unused so I thought I'd send them back to try the bunnybats. The lady at the post office asked about them.

"Are these regular alkalines or something else?"

I replied, "No ma'am. Those are lithiums."

She stated. "We'll have to ship them ground."

I offered, "Would it simplify things if we subtracted the lithiums?"

"Why, yes." she said. "We can get this flashlight right out".

I felt eyes on me and noticed some strange looks from people in line next to me...like I was doing something dangerous.

I told a mutual flashlight buddy (CPFer) and they reminded me that lithiums were used in meth production...that's why I was getting the looks.

Of course I had no confidence in describing AA Li-FeS2 as being airship worthy. I'm thinking of making a major purchace of CR123s, CR2s, Ns, Li-FeS2s and RCR123s while I can.
 
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NewBie

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milkyspit said:
My mistake! The super stiff spring is at the HEAD end of the light. This is a technicality, though... it had the same effect as described in above posts.

Here are a couple photos...

My PM6 HA3 LED disassembled. Super stiff spring at the head end. Remember, I cut off AT LEAST HALF of it... taking another look while shooting these photos, I'm thinking I actually cut away more!
img-cpf-pm6-head-spring-overhead.jpg


Closer look. Note how thick the wire is relative to the positive battery contact point, for example!
img-cpf-pm6-head-spring-closeup.jpg


Not sure if this will help anyone, but hopefully the photos will give some idea of just how thick and heavy this spring was. Again, no intent to malign Pelican, Battery Station, Kevin, ...or anyone else! Just sharing.


Here is a monster spring wire diameter, but full length, does this put my PM6 at the right generation (it does have the focusable reflector)(I do know it is at least as old as 2003, or older...):
pm6sprg1.jpg

pm6sprg2.jpg


This one does look more like the pieces I have seen on other PM6 pictures of the explosion remants.
 
Last edited:

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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Indeed that is an old style Lamp Module. On my old PM6 (and many others) a good portion of the spring is dremeld off and smoothed up. It lets the tailcap screw on farther without really squeezing the cells.

Reference Milkys post for detail.
 

photonhoer

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LM - I want to join the chorus of well-wishers; your misfortune has uncovered a REAL need to look more closely at how and where we use these CR123 storage devices. Also, major kudos on your attitude of "let's find out" rather than "who can I sue"!!! I hope your complete recovery is on the near horizon.

Also, I want to echo OutsideIdiot: "But we need to focus on ideas, rather than jumping to poorly-founded conclusions about brands." There's a lot to be figured out here, and I offer my THANKS to all of the many people who are hard at work developing hypotheses and testing them.

One small effort at contribution: The heat variable seems an important one to pursue; it's hard to fathom this catastrophic outcome without it. Is the PM6 not noted for its illumination? ...and this correlated with current draw? Therefore might other lights with lesser current draw - and indeed the same light with a different light source - fail to replicate the explosive failure? Perhaps worth checking out the current draw of the older light module in comparison with newer PM6 modules, and with other 2x123 lights. If there is a significant difference, then testing with other than a very high draw module would of course contribute nothing to our understanding.

Finally, a question: what do we know about the behavior of the CR2 and the rechargable configurations of the Li-Ion batteries? Are they potentially just as vulnerable? Is the chemistry the same in the reg. CR2 as the C123? Are the rechargable versions different enough to side-line them from concern?

Thanks for listening,

John
 

Hans

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photonhoer said:
Finally, a question: what do we know about the behavior of the CR2 and the rechargable configurations of the Li-Ion batteries? Are they potentially just as vulnerable? Is the chemistry the same in the reg. CR2 as the C123? Are the rechargable versions different enough to side-line them from concern?

There's a sticky on safety considerations with li-ion rechargeables. It makes sobering reading:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106242

That thread doesn't answer *all* the questions, but it answers quite a lot.

However, I think it's a good idea to keep the question of rechargeables separate from the present discussion about the safety of lithium primaries. Even though the probability of this sort of accident happening to anyone who sticks to the main safety measures mentioned here and in other threads here, such as

- using only well-matched batteries in multicell lights,
- using only batteries with a proven track record like Batterystation, Surefire, Duracell, Sanyo and so on,
- being careful with the batteries, that is not dropping them or damaging them in any way

is probably fairly low, I feel it's nevertheless essential that someone finds out which set of conditions is responsible for such accidents. I'm not so much worried about my personal safety, after all I know about the potential risks now and I decide whether I continue using lithium cells, but I am worried about the safety of others who may be affected should one of my lights blow up.

I also feel the likes of Surefire, Inova, Streamlight and so on must be interested in getting to the bottom of this. Should there be a general problem with lithium cells in high-draw lights, they may well have a nasty problem on their hands as soon as the first person gets killed. And without wanting to sound too pessimistic, given the dangers of lithium cells outlined in some of the recent posts that may well happen sometime.

Hans
 

batterystation

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Art Vandelay said:
Does anybody know if BatteryStation batteries have PTC protection? Not that there is anything wrong with that.:)

Thanks
Yes they have PTC protection. They would never pass UL or any other tests without it. I just short circuited one here on my Fluke DMM and at about 7 amps it got hot and the current slowly dropped to under 1 amp until I let the cell cool off. In another thread I noted that out of 40 samples from different companies three years ago, 13 did not even have PTC protection. I would imagine a bunch still don't but all the good names do.
 

batterystation

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brightnorm said:
Google on exploding laptops. I fear for the future of lithium batteries (and these were Li-ONs)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=+Laptop+Explodes+&btnG=Search

Brightnorm
One of the main reasons we have stayed away from Lithium Polymers is this very thing. Check out Polymers. There are at least if not more occurances of this happening in that chemistry. So we are hypocrites here in only dealing with "mildly dangerous?" batteries I guess. It is a dead horse, but I am going to beat it again. BE CAREFUL. These things are LOTS of stored energy in a tiny package. Handle with respect.
 

daloosh

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Hey Culhain, welcome to CPF, why dontcha stay awhile!

Sorry, dude, I get a link to a story on migraines?!?!

but welcome anyways!
daloosh
 

mdocod

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Google on exploding laptops.

upon closer inspection- pretty much every result (I checked the first 10 pages) is a link to a republication of the exact same laptop exploding in the japanese conference.... so while it may return LOTS of results... most of the results are the exact same story... happens to be a high profile story atm...
 

OutdoorIdiot

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(I typed most of this with Notepad in order to make sure it doesn't get lost in VBulletin oblivion. Not sure how it will come out like... Also, it's 2am here and my eyes are closing, so there's probably all sorts of wrongness here...)

I've been attempting to look into the kind of thing I mentioned in these posts (I won't repeat them again here):

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1455149&postcount=378

and

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1459110&postcount=450

The tests I've been doing aren't ideal, because I don't have a device to measure the temperature of batteries. Anyway, I realised there's still a lot that I could be doing, so I've been doing what tests I can along those lines. The only instrument I have in order to produce useful numeric data is an analogue multimeter, with which I could measure flash amps. I also have a finger, with which I could crudely estimate which of my own flashlights was the worst in terms of heating up the battery close to the bulb.

I finally settled on my Streamlight TL-3, which has a design which seems to apply rather a lot of heat to the first battery. Even before the head feels hot to the touch, the part of the spring that is in contact with the battery starts to feel very hot - unlike the G2, which I was initially using for the tests. The G2 actually seems much kinder in the way it distributes heat.

I'll just post the results for the TL-3.

First, the background to the tests:

Methodology
===========
Environment: TL-3 was placed on a few folded pieces of paper with some air in between them,
to provide moderate thermal insulation. I didn't go overboard with thermal insulation, because I was not trying to get the whole flashlight hot - I was more interested in the potential effects of the relative temperature difference between batteries. The ambient temperature was about 20degC / 70degF.

Flash amp measurements: First the battery terminals and multimeter probes were cleaned. Then the current from all 3 batteries was measured. Then the current from all 3 batteries was measured again. An average was taken from first and second readings. Readings from first pass and second pass were very consistent, as it happens. All flash amp measurements were taken when the batteries were cool. After a run, they would be allowed to cool for a minimum of 30 minutes. I let them cool while in the flashlight, to keep things "real".

Other: All batteries were fresh out the packet, and unused prior to initial flash amp measurement. I numbered each battery with a CD marker pen to ensure I kept track of what order they were in inside the Tl-3.


Uncertainties
=============
Ambient temperature measurement: +/- 5degC or +/- 9degF (domestic thermometer)
Timing of runs: +/- 5 seconds (used alarm)
Timing of cooling periods: + 20 minutes (watching telly and drinking tea)
Flash Amp Measurements: +/- .1 amp (parallax / timing)


Assumptions
===========
Flash amp readings are a good indication of the capacity of a cell.


Result Presentation
===================
In the result data below, battery ID 1 means closest to the bulb, ID 3 means furthest from the bulb. The four column headings should be taken to be, in this order: Battery ID, Initial FA Reading, FA Reading, FA Delta. FA Delta was calculated as (FA Reading - Initial FA Reading), so is expected to be negative in all cases.


Purpose of Tests
================
To investigate the possibly uneven depletion of cells in multi-cell, high powered lights.

It is speculated that the intense heat at one end of the light will transfer unevenly to the various batteries in the light. This would mean the batteries are operating at different temperatures. This, in turn, could mean that they deplete at different rates. The concern, then, would be that even if one placed "100%", "matching" cells into a flashlight, that, over time, they could become significantly "mis-matching" cells. This would likely lead to a reverse-charging scenario.

Therefore, when looking at the data, the area of interest is: How do the FA Deltas vary with the Battery ID?




THE TESTS
=========

Test 1
------
15 minute continuous runtime
3 x SureFire 123; Expiry Month 08 2014
DATA:
1 7.1 6.5 -0.6
2 6.8 6.6 -0.2
3 6.6 6.6 0

test10lg.jpg

Comments: Exactly the kind of pattern I was looking for. Note, though, that the FA reading for the 3rd battery hasn't changed after the 15 minute runtime. This implies the flash amp methodology is not perfect (who said it was?).

Test 2
------
25 minute continuous runtime
3 x Panasonic 123; Expiry Month 05 2012 (I think - batteries simply had "512" written on them!)
Battery ID Previous FA Reading FA Reading FA Delta
1 7.2 6.4 -0.8
2 7 6.2 -0.8
3 7.1 6.3 -0.8
test26cb.jpg

Comments: Exactly NOT the kind of pattern I was looking for. Or, exactly THE kind of pattern that is nice in an ideal world...


Test 3
------
15 minute continuous runtime
3 x SureFire 123; Expiry Month 05 2015
1 7.3 6.5 -0.8
2 7.3 6.6 -0.7
3 7.2 6.7 -0.5
test35qd.jpg

Comments: Exactly the kind of pattern I was looking for, but not as convincing as in the first test.

Conclusions
===========
None. Not really enough data to get excited about. I do have some thoughts, but too tired to articulate them at the moment. I'll be interested in seeing what other people make of the results. Might be a few days before I get the chance to read the thread again, though.




Relevant Reading
================
Energizer 123 Technical data - interesting info regarding behaviour at different temperatures:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

That information makes it clear that a single CR123 cell will behave quite differently depending on the operating temperature. However, what exactly happens when you put multiple CR123s in series, each at different operating temperatures, is not clear. It's the kind of thing that can be speculated upon, but really I'd rather see result data for that kind of scenario.
 
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