ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

[NewBie]

Relevant Reading
================
Energizer 123 Technical data - interesting info regarding behaviour at different temperatures:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

That information makes it clear that a single CR123 cell will behave quite differently depending on the operating temperature. However, what exactly happens when you put multiple CR123s in series, each at different operating temperatures, is not clear. It's the kind of thing that can be speculated upon, but really I'd rather see result data for that kind of scenario.

See also:
http://www.duracell.com/Procell/pdf/Li123_US_OS.pdf

 

[Archangel]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

So, ummm.. has anyone talked to Lunarmodule lately?

 

[mdocod]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Outdooridiot: thankyou for runnig those tests- that's awsom...

I think more tests would be needed to conclude a *lot* on that subject.. but this is definetally a good start- and 2 of the 3 tests reveal the "issue" we are looking for.. maybe said issue does exsist, and should be taken into consideration-

I guess the conclusion at this point based on those tests would be
::: Cells with equal state-of-capacity may not discharge in syncroness manner when used in devices with varied tempuratures through the battery compartment..

 

[OutdoorIdiot]

mdocod,

Absolutely. I'm hoping those with better equipment than myself will indeed perform such tests. I don't think I'll be carrying out many more (possibly a couple more).

There is, however, a bit more weight to the results that I've been getting than is revealed in just those 3 tests.

As I say, I had been doing the same sort of thing with other flashlights, most particularly the G2.

As it happens, in all cases, either there wasn't a measurable difference between the Flash Amp Deltas of the batteries, or they showed the kind of pattern that I was looking for. Interestingly, they never showed the reverse pattern to tests (1) and (3) above. That is, the cell nearest to the bulb always showed the most depletion, whenever there was a noticeable difference.

Furthermore, I tried the idea of changing the order of batteries for one test. A 25 minute run in the G2 (P60) showed a noticeably greater depletion of the first cell. Then I changed the batteries around, and ran for another 25 minutes. The cells then seemed to have equalised.

These earlier results were too marginal to be worth publishing, but enough to encourage me to do further testing. However I mention them here just to add encouragement for anyone else that might want to do this sort of investigation, ideally with a flashlight that is quite aggressive at heating up the first battery.

Also, it may or may not be worth noting that in the published test (2), the brand of battery was different, and therefore the formula or physical design might have been different. It is not unreasonable to speculate that some cell formulas, or indeed physical designs, will be less susceptibe to temperature differences than others. I had thought that Panasonic and SureFire were one in the same, but some recent posts on CPF suggest otherwise. Either way, I gather even cells coming from the same factory could have different formulas/designs. I don't really think this is an issue, but it would be incomplete not to mention it.


NewBie,

Thanks for the link. I couldn't get it working at first, but it worked fine when I got the latest version of Acrobat Reader. The graphs in your link are nicer to look at!


Archangel,

Last I heard, Kevin @ BatteryStation has spoken to LM not too long ago. It seemed he was doing fine, but then I haven't heard anything since...

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

I'm quite cheap (mostly ) and am not likely to run many 123s dead.

I checked Flash Amps in the last three of my multi-123 lights, and my only CR2 light.

Everything was ok in my SNII with the middle battery about 1/2 an amp behind the front and last. In my Everready 2AA light hogged out to hold three 123 again the middle batt was a bit behind the other two. And my rechrgeable Brinkmann Maxfire that has a spacer and runs 3x123 was ok.

My Everready 2AA with 3xCR2 however had one almost dead cell and two with over 6FA.... that could have been fun. But it hasn't been turned on in a long while!

My lights are almost all kept in very moderate temps and out of direct sunlight.

I KNOW I have had 123s run totally dead in a goofy 2D light I used to keep in the garage for looking into barrels and such. This was pretty long ago and nothing ever went boom.

The CR2 light is out of commission for a while! Moderate pre-caution say NO to a batt with less that 1FA!!!

edit> HMM!!! I have two cheapy Multi-Meters and they don't quite agree on flash amps... it APPEARS that I have two pretty dead CR2 and one medium live one. Of course I shall only use one of them for FA, and the other for V. <edit

further edit> In the interest of Science, I shall sacrifice the Eveready CR2 light by putting out on the hot concete turned on. I don't have a way to record it, but will get pics if anything happens! <further edit

 

[OutdoorIdiot]

PlayboyJoeShmoe,

Thanks.

I wouldn't expect the temperature variation across batteries to be a big issue for a lot of people and a lot of useage scenarios (certainly not my own, for example). I would expect it only becomes a significant issue when lights are used for long periods constant-on, and there is therefore time for a significant temperature difference to be established between the batteries. I would also expect the effect to be more noticeable if the flashlight design is such that a lot of heat is transferred directly from the bulb to the first battery.

I'm also not at all sure that whether the light is held in the hand or not would have a huge impact on this particular phenomenon. That is not to suggest that I have discounted general overheating as a problem, but rather I'm particularly focussing on uneven heating for these tests.

Since you mention multimeters, I have to say I'm very happy with mine. It's old and it's analogue, and it seems that the needle takes much longer to reach the maximum for a flash amp reading than others. But multiple readings for the same battery really are always within .1 amp of each other, which can only be a good thing!

Anyway, all your test data will be gratefully received!

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

A strange couple of things, but no boom.

Apparently the reflector distorted just enough to break contact. But something strange is going on. When I put it out there it was fairly dim. And the batteries were somewhat widely variable in charge.

Now with contact re-established, it's quite a bit brighter. And the batteries are fairly close to each other in FA and V.

I'll let it remain off for a day or so and check the batteries again.

Stupid to forget about heat and plastic!

 

[NewBie]

I figured I'd gather up some of the more recent problems, my links to the older issues and 123 Primary Lithium cells are now broken, but did what I could. Check out the info here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1473910#post1473910


Sanyo also offers a number of interesting safety tips;
-Do not apply strong pressure
-Do not heat
-etc...
http://www.sanyo.com/batteries/pdfs/lithium_E.pdf

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

Re-checked the CR2s just now.

With a ???? DT-830D Multimeter I got 2.2, 2.4 and 3.5 Fa

With an Elektro-tek ???? Multimeter I got 3.2, 3.6 and 6.1 Fa

I would be willing to swear on a stack of bibles that one cell had less than 1 Fa when I first pulled them out yesterday, and the light was dim when I set it on the concrete.

It runs fairly bright just now. WHOOPS! Just put the batteries in strongest first and weakest last and it isn't very bright just now....

Turns out the bulb solder to battery plus connection is screwed up. I tried a lot of stuff, and finally put the reflector and bulb holder from an older Rayovac 2aa into this Energizer. It's pretty bright but QUITE difused! Also looks more yellow than I remember.

Anyhow these CR2s aren't dead yet, and I can't afford to buy any more. So this light gets put on the back burner.

And I have no new data to report.

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

I just couldn't leave it alone! I found the metal piece that made the connection from the bulb solder blob to the battery plus missing. I found a diferent one but that didn't work. I made one and that didn't work.

Hmph!

I left the screw in part of the bulb holder out, and put the bulb in head down. Then the batteries, most powerful one first. Then a spacer I made to connect battery minus to the spring.

Voila! It works again.

I still have no new data to report.

 

[StoneDog]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

So, ummm.. has anyone talked to Lunarmodule lately?

I received an email from him June 12. It sounded like he was doing much better. I can't speak for him, of course, but perhaps we can assume no news is good news? Steve, if you're out there drop us a quick message and let us know how you're doing.

Jon

 

[IsaacHayes]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Not like him to not sign in or buy lights in a while. I hope he is just busy and not sick!!

 

[batterystation]

I just shipped a requested box to Steve. Not sure why he has not posted here for a while but he is fine. I forgot this last weekend was Field Day and so only got 4 tests done of about a dozen we wanted to do. All failed. I used two original Pelican M6 lights this time and left the G2 alone given the stats of PM6s. Just got hot batteries. PTCs appeared to shut everything down once hot. Current draw dropped to .4A and just went dead when the light got hot facing bezel down. All were bezel down. Nothing new. Testing of every battery will continue. I am again sorry I have not been able to learn anything new.

Statistics supplied by my cousins husband who flies for UPS show cabin pressure of about 5000 feet through the flight and temps in the 40-70F range. None of this sounded like trouble, but he did mention that the containers could reach about 150F on the air strip while waiting for the aircraft.

 

[OutdoorIdiot]

Kevin,

I might get shot down for suggesting this, but I really feel that you have to draw a line somewhere. In the same way that even searches for missing people have to be called off at some point.

You obviously have a conscience that has made you take considerable steps to try to improve things, even though no-one can put their finger on what exactly needs to be improved! But we've had enough reports, in this thread alone, of other brands (including the ones most CPFers regard as being paragons of virtue!) of battery exploding. If anything, statistics *could* be used to show that your brand is possibly safer than others, and *could* be used to show that it is a flashlight, at least as much as the batteries it contains, that results in such rare problems.

Of course it would be nice if you or anyone else finds the time to look into why these things, very rarely, go wrong.

But I just want to state, for the record, that I don't see why you, more than anyone else, should feel it is their job to do so. If you have a run of batteries that are involved in explosions, then yes. But as far as I can tell, you don't.

I just wanted to voice the opinion that there is no expectation from myself, and I hope others agree, that you should feel the need to get to the bottom of this problem. It could well be an impossible task.

How about if you announce a cut-off date, or a finite number of further tests, after which you will have to hang up the towel and give up (assuming, like everyone else that has tried, that you don't actually make a useful discovery)?

 

[NewBie]

I just shipped a requested box to Steve. Not sure why he has not posted here for a while but he is fine. I forgot this last weekend was Field Day and so only got 4 tests done of about a dozen we wanted to do. All failed. I used two original Pelican M6 lights this time and left the G2 alone given the stats of PM6s. Just got hot batteries. PTCs appeared to shut everything down once hot. Current draw dropped to .4A and just went dead when the light got hot facing bezel down. All were bezel down. Nothing new. Testing of every battery will continue. I am again sorry I have not been able to learn anything new.

Statistics supplied by my cousins husband who flies for UPS show cabin pressure of about 5000 feet through the flight and temps in the 40-70F range. None of this sounded like trouble, but he did mention that the containers could reach about 150F on the air strip while waiting for the aircraft.

Kevin,

I'm not sure if anyone considered it yet, but incandescent bulbs look like a short at start up. Have you tried multiple off and on cycles, which might lead up to a bit of gas generation inside (and possibly accumulation)?

(allowing for bulb to cool for a little bit each time, so it's resistance drops back down).

An alternate to this would be multiple off and on cycles, then a continous run. The idea is to allow things generate a bit of gas inside (with the off and on cycles), then heating the cell up with a continous run, which would further increase the pressure of existing gasses inside.

 

[batterystation]

Kevin,

I'm not sure if anyone considered it yet, but incandescent bulbs look like a short at start up. Have you tried multiple off and on cycles, which might lead up to a bit of gas generation inside (and possibly accumulation)?

(allowing for bulb to cool for a little bit each time, so it's resistance drops back down).

An alternate to this would be multiple off and on cycles, then a continous run. The idea is to allow things generate a bit of gas inside (with the off and on cycles), then heating the cell up with a continous run, which would further increase the pressure of existing gasses inside.

No I have not tried that one. I have turned them off and on a few times, but just for no reason other than making sure they were all the way on or tight. The one thing that WILL continue is the testing. That is the one single thing that COULD be eliminated as a failure option with nothing more than added labor/time. If we can pull any battery that is off 100%, it is not perfect but could eliminate one of the figures in the equation.

 

[fieldops]

Thank you for all your efforts, Kevin. You have truly gone above and beyond the call. Your concern for your customers and indeed all primary lithiums users is commendable. Thanks again Kevin!

 

[GregWormald]

Kevin,
Since it seems more likely that poorly measuring batteries would cause problems (if only because they cause measurement problems!) are you using them in your testing?
I still think that the crushing is implicated in the yet-to-be-identified pattern.
Greg

 

[milkyspit]

Slightly OT I know, but given that this thread is all about safety with lithium cells, I just have to ask of those who have a far better vantage point than I do... which would tend to be less dangerous, PRIMARY lithium cells or PROTECTED lithium-ion rechargeables? By protected I mean the ones with both mechanical AND electronic protective devices. (Not "bare," not "unprotected," as Newbie has taught us.)
:thinking:

 

[Hans]

Slightly OT I know, but given that this thread is all about safety with lithium cells, I just have to ask of those who have a far better vantage point than I do... which would tend to be less dangerous, PRIMARY lithium cells or PROTECTED lithium-ion rechargeables? By protected I mean the ones with both mechanical AND electronic protective devices. (Not "bare," not "unprotected," as Newbie has taught us.)

That's a very good question. I'd like to add another one: How about running *unprotected* li-ion rechargeables in a light like the HDS that protects them from over discharge?

Hans