ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

[NewBie]

Did NewBie mention above what the current draw was from the two CR123A's?

BTW: Fine work NewBie! :twothumbs

Way back in the thread, yes.

PM6 is 1.26 to 1.4 Amps, depending on the state of cells.

The StreamLight bulb was 1.21 Amps, when I checked.


I plan on instrumenting the setup further, and record information, like temps, currents, voltages of each cell.

I also need to go back and try this same exact test with other brand cells. I have not had a chance to do that yet.

 

[Size15's]

What about the G2's P60?

 

[wptski]

Way back in the thread, yes.

PM6 is 1.26 to 1.4 Amps, depending on the state of cells.

The StreamLight bulb was 1.21 Amps, when I checked.


I plan on instrumenting the setup further, and record information, like temps, currents, voltages of each cell.

I also need to go back and try this same exact test with other brand cells. I have not had a chance to do that yet.

NB:

My 5W BB750 draws 1.8A, although I run it on a single Li-Ion cell!

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Newbie,

Excellent work on this.

It appears that along with a mismatch in capacity, this reaction also needs heat. Any idea of what the critical temperature is?

Tom

 

[frisco]

Doubtful that a camera will put enough drain on these cells to cause the problem. Remember, a flashlight drain is continuous, where a camera is multiple instantaneous, but very rapid draws, almost like flashamp testing.

I've run 123's in a Nikon camera on full auto, running as fast as it would recycle the film, (yes a FILM camera!) for a whole roll of film and they weren't even warm. The thing with most cameras that use 123's is that they use film, I'm not sure that any of the newer digitals, which conceivably could take thousands of shots, use 123's, but I don't think the draw is the same anyway.

Does anyone know if any current cameras do use 123's vs rechargeable packs, vs AA's?

Bill

I have a Hasselblad H1 camera that runs on 3x CR123 Primary Batteries. In regular use it shuts itself off with a sleep timer and I can usually get through a day on a set. On real hard continuous use the H1 can suck down the batteries in a couple hours.
Although I don't have a tester yet, I buy my batteries 50 at a time and shrink wrap them in sets of three.
I have never heard of any battery safety warnings beside leaking Alkalines in my photo endeavors (I'm not saying there haven't been any.... just was never brought to my attention)
Thanks to my education here on CPF I might be one of the only photographers that practices "Safer" battery use in the Hasselbad H series cameras.
I'm following this thread with great interest.

frisco

 

[winny]

What about the G2's P60?

If you mean the current draw, it was 1.1 A last time I checked.

 

[OldGreyGuy]

I have a Hasselblad H1 camera that runs on 3x CR123 Primary Batteries. In regular use it shuts itself off with a sleep timer and I can usually get through a day on a set. On real hard continuous use the H1 can suck down the batteries in a couple hours.

In reading back through the thread it seems that heat MAY* be a factor in these venting incidents. When pushing the Hasselblad hard does the draw from the camera seem to cause the batteries to get hot? I've not noticed any significant heating problems in my cameras but I'm using Canon and the BP511s are not the same chemistry as CR123 batteries.

* Note, this is not proven although it seems to be a common thread according to my reading of some of the earlier posts, but then every sample shown so far has happened in the northern hemisphere and I doubt that that is relevant either

 

[zhuntai]

PM6 is 1.26 to 1.4 Amps, depending on the state of cells.

The StreamLight bulb was 1.21 Amps, when I checked.

Wow... that's not really a whole lot of current to be creating these results. My U2 drains about that on high and I imagine incans could do a whole lot more! *poof*

 

[FlashlightOCD]

Observation: I have an Aleph 1 [2x123] that I requested Don customize to a high [1 Amp] setting.

I decided to try BS RCR123's in the light. I charged both batteries to green light + 10 minutes. After a [relatively] short period of useage I recharged the batteries. One battery recharged to green in just a couple of minutes, the other took more like 10 minutes.

I wasn't smart enough to note which battery was front and which was rear, but it appears that one of them drains much faster than the other.

This anecdotal observation may mean nothing at all, but may warrant more scientific investigation. As others have have already noted, Don McLeish has a long thread on thermal paradox.

 

[drmaxx]

GREAT WORK NEWBIE! :bow:

I am now watching this discussions on exploding cells for quite a while and here's the theory that formed itself in my (chemistry and safety trained) brain:
It's all about temperature and load on the primary, the two factors that seems to built up each other. For me it's no surprise that from the two batteries the new one exploded.
A high load leads to high temperatures - at high temperatures lithium cells have a higher self dischared rate, which itself leads to a increased rate of heat production. The partially depleted battery would then act as a second load by 'charging' itself (this does not necessarily means that a hydrogen gas has to be produced - it just means that a chemical reaction is sucking up energy). This adds to the heat production because of the chemical reaction and because of the higher load on the charging battery.
Higher temperatures also means smaller internal resistance (chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures) which increases both the charging reaction and the load on the batteries and does its own share in supporting the cycle.

In a double cell setting the newer battery is the one with the higher load and therefore with the higher heat production and therefore will be the one that will vent first.

The difference in heat dissipation between a single cell and a double cell flashlight is not that big (slightly larger area). However the heat production doubles. This helps to explain why double cell flashlights seem to have more incidents of exploding batteries.

This might be all bs - but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway hoping it contributes towards a solution or to a more focussed testing.

 

[NewBie]

GREAT WORK NEWBIE! :bow:

A high load leads to high temperatures - at high temperatures lithium cells have a higher self dischared rate, which itself leads to a increased rate of heat production.

This might be all bs - but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway hoping it contributes towards a solution or to a more focussed testing.

Actually, from what I've noticed, higher heat levels cause the PTC to kick in and nothing happens since the PTC resistance goes up and it forces the current to go down. I finished running this same test three times in the middle of the day in the sun- no events.

That said, it is possible that they may still violently burst into fireballs with burning debris blasting out the entire guts of the cell, with almost nothing left in the cell. The debris seem continue to burn until there was no more oxygen, as long as I get the lid back over the bucket. Yes, I did have that happen more than once. It is an amazing thing to see, such a tiny cell wreaking so much havoc.

 

[metalhed]

Great work NewBie...this is getting somewhere, I can feel it.

drmaxx...I like your explanation.

I think I understand NewBie's response (I'm definitely not as skilled as you guys in this area), but would it be possible for the cell to overheat internally, to the point of failure, without sufficient heat reaching the PTC? Could the shell of a light actually sink heat from the skin of the cell, delaying the activation of the PTC?

When I think of your exploded views of a 123, I can imagine hotspots developing in some areas of the membrane as the cell is stressed. Hard for me to believe that the internal stresses are uniform within the cell. If a high enough temperature were reached on a 'spot' basis, would this generate a runaway reaction? Is this inaccurate or poorly reasoned?

And in the middle of the day, the body of the light would have less capacity to sink heat from the cell. I would think it would hasten the PTC activation.

 

[LifeNRA]

Forgive me if this has been asked or discussed. I admit that I have not read the whole thread. I have read much of it but not all.

Would it be safe to assume that using a rechargable protected 17670 Li-ion battery would be a safer alternative than using 2 CR123 batteries? Would using said battery eliminate the problem?

 

[wptski]

Forgive me if this has been asked or discussed. I admit that I have not read the whole thread. I have read much of it but not all.

Would it be safe to assume that using a rechargable protected 17670 Li-ion battery would be a safer alternative than using 2 CR123 batteries? Would using said battery eliminate the problem?

It seems like these cases are from using two CR123A's is series. I haven't read anything yet about a problem a with single CR123A, so a single protected Li-Ion should be better yet!

After reading this thread I checked the 3W DB970 powered by two CR123A's that's in my truck and they didn't check the same on a ZTS MBT-1, so I installed a matched set. I should probably use the flash amps method too on the cells!

 

[drmaxx]

Actually, from what I've noticed, higher heat levels cause the PTC to kick in and nothing happens since the PTC resistance goes up and it forces the current to go down. I finished running this same test three times in the middle of the day in the sun- no events.

Does anybody know the characteristics of these PTCs? As I can recall Li-Ion battery packs in Laptops have an additional temperature fuse (non reversible) beside the thermistor. It might be possible that, as metalhed pointed out, a very rapid internal heat build up overloads the PTC to a point of failure.

 

[bombelman]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Whoa !! I just found this thread.... I have to pick up my jaw, brb....

 

[NoFair]

Forgive me if this has been asked or discussed. I admit that I have not read the whole thread. I have read much of it but not all.

Would it be safe to assume that using a rechargable protected 17670 Li-ion battery would be a safer alternative than using 2 CR123 batteries? Would using said battery eliminate the problem?

Probably would be safer. A good quality Li-ion has several protection systems to avoid the venting with flame scenario. (I would try to get Sanyo or LGs since these are considered to be the best cells)

Not all lights will work with a 17670 (battery slightly fatter than a cr123, different voltage...)
I hardly every use cr123s except as spares anymore.

 

[VidPro]

something funkey with the releace valve thing , did you see if the safety pressure releace valve ruptured? a little autopsy?

while your having fun there blowing stuff up, can you test SINGLES, instead of teaming up, or would that be uneventfull?

you have a single instance of showing that heat (via insulation) made it worse, i wonder now if heat alone MINUS the imbalance would be as effective. just drawing say 1.5A off singles.

you keep mentioning camera, i thought you had a video camera viewing in.
if you need a video camera i might have one that could be blown up, that way you could monitor your temps, voltages, and pressures, while your not there.

assuming that you dont put a hole in the side of that pickle barrel and start something else on fire.

 

[Porter]

After reading this thread I just placed my first order w/Battery Station for 3 rcr123a's and the charger. Kudo's BS for your quick response and generous offer to Lunarmodule. Kudo's to you Lunarmodule for your understanding and hesitance for litigation.

 

[NewBie]

something funkey with the releace valve thing , did you see if the safety pressure releace valve ruptured? a little autopsy?

while your having fun there blowing stuff up, can you test SINGLES, instead of teaming up, or would that be uneventfull?

you have a single instance of showing that heat (via insulation) made it worse, i wonder now if heat alone MINUS the imbalance would be as effective. just drawing say 1.5A off singles.

you keep mentioning camera, i thought you had a video camera viewing in.
if you need a video camera i might have one that could be blown up, that way you could monitor your temps, voltages, and pressures, while your not there.

assuming that you dont put a hole in the side of that pickle barrel and start something else on fire.

Yes, the valve has ruptured many, many times for me, or been consumed in the fireball blasts I've had on a few test runs.

I could not get the venting/explosions to occur outside a flashlight, with bare cells. I did get 3 for 3 venting/bursts inside a PM6, with mis-matched cells. I could not get venting to occur with the BS ZTS tested "matched" cells. I could not get the venting to occur on days where the outside ambient temperature was above 85F. I did get 3 for 3 ventings to occur when I wrapped the cells in aluminum, much like the aluminum body of a flashlight.

See this thread for a video of an extremely minor venting video:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1497172

As far as testing single cell scenarios, at a later date you may be able to talk me into it, if you pay for the cells. Right now I've been busy running tests every night and on the weekends for the past month, and they are still in process.