Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

[BVH]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Not a military light so no OD (in my military purest humble opinion) Flat or light gloss black is what aviation uses and would be nice. I like the raw alum look on the ring.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

I have emailed an inquiry to Schiederwerk to confirm these ballasts work for the SA lamps, and ask if ignitors are needed, too. Also asked for a quote.

BVH, if your PS and ignitor/housing works down to 350W, maybe I could use it portable for 400W lamps, and have mains or generator powered fun at 1000W as a possible upgrade? Shipping is tough, yes. I don't know how the eBay sellers send these things across the country as cheaply as they do. Seems a pallet and freight handling might be needed to keep it intact. If you decide to sell these, keep me in mind.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Not a military light so no OD (in my military purest humble opinion) Flat or light gloss black is what aviation uses and would be nice. I like the raw alum look on the ring.

I can respect the no OD colored 'poser' paint scheme opinion. Point noted. Unless I modeled the final configuration after a real Military searchlight, as a tribute of sorts, maybe. 1/3 scale Carbon Arc maybe? Perhaps I should go with a sci-fi death ray scheme? (Kidding. I think:thinking:.)

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

I just realized that ez78 used one of the Chinese electronic MH ballasts with a 7mm SA MH lamp in the '400W HID Thor' build. So, maybe running a 3mm SA MH could work. Encouraging. Maybe I will pick up a lamp and ballast to test. Roughly a $200 gamble, still undecided but currently is my leading plan. Part of the risk is running such a ballast from a modified wave type inverter.

Here is the Thor thread for those who may not be familiar:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?191645-400W-HID-Thor

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

This ridiculously long and detailed article about powering motion picture lighting seems to indicate that MH electronic ballasts can generally run from modified sine wave power (like my inverter), especially if the ballasts are power factor corrected. My auto voltage controlled generator should run them, too.

http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Arrrgh, forgot to copy and lost a long post with a ton of ballast, inverter, and power correction info and questions to the Token Expired monster:hairpull:. Funny thing is it hadn't been very long, and the error repeated several times after refreshes. Oh well, I'm not fully recreating that post.

Very briefly then:

I re-read the above Theatrical Lighting Power article (allow a couple of hours if you do this) and several other sources, including solar power forums.

My tentative conclusions:

1. Electronic MH ballasts are highly reactive loads with leading current, low power factors.
2. Power Factor Corrected (PFC) SMPS-based ballasts are better for AVC generators than non-PFC versions.
3. For non PFC electronic MH ballasts, don't exceed about 1/3 of generator capacity. Will tend to overheat circuit, regardless.
4. Either type should work (degrading this to might, not should) with modified wave inverters if they are lightly loaded.
5. Don't try to run other devices on the circuit if you plug a non-PFC inverter into it.

Update:

Here is what seems to be a respectable source, finally with a specific mention of HID lamps. Of course, they don't mention if the issues are with electronic, or magnetic ballasts. But I think the electronic ones are the ones likely to have issues, due to the bridge/capacitor input power supply that delivers DC for the actual inverter SMPS. This is the source of the distortion harmonics injected back into the power supply. From that source:

Which devices will not function properly from a Modified Sine-wave Inverter?

Any device that uses a control circuitry that senses the phase (for voltage / speed control) or instantaneous zero voltage crossing (for timing control) will not work properly from a voltage that has a modified sine wave-form. Also, as the modified sine wave is a form of square wave, it is comprised of multiple sine waves of odd harmonics (multiples) of the fundamental frequency of the modified sine wave. For example, a 60 Hz. modified sine wave will consist of sine waves with odd harmonic frequencies of 3rd (180 Hz), 5th (300 Hz.), 7th (420 Hz.) and so on. The high frequency harmonic content in a modified sine wave produces enhanced radio interference, higher heating effect in motors / microwaves and produces overloading due to lowering of the impedance of low frequency filter capacitors / power factor improvement capacitors.
Some examples of devices that may not work properly with modified sine wave and may also get damaged are given below:

• Laser printers, photocopiers, magneto-optical hard drives
• The built-in clocks in devices such as clock radios, alarm clocks, coffee makers, bread-makers, VCR, microwave ovens etc may not keep time correctly
• Output voltage control devices like dimmers, ceiling fan / motor speed control may not work properly (dimming / speed control may not function)
• Sewing machines with speed / microprocessor control
• Transformer-less capacitive input powered devices like (i) Razors, flashlights, night-lights, smoke detectors etc (ii) Re-chargers for battery packs used in hand power tools. These may get damaged. Please check with the manufacturer of these types of devices for suitability
• Devices that use radio frequency signals carried by the AC distribution wiring
• Some new furnaces with microprocessor control / Oil burner primary controls
• High intensity discharge (HID) lamps like Metal Halide lamps. These may get damaged. Please check with the manufacturer of these types of devices for suitability
  
• Some fluorescent lamps / light fixtures that have power factor correction capacitors. The inverter may shut down indicating overload

http://www.samlexamerica.com/support/faqs/faq02.aspx

Maybe it would be better to just use a magnetic ballast and ignitor, except I can't find one for these MSR SA lamps.

Another option may be to modify the inverter to get DC out of it before it's 'inverting section' (another SMPS, I think). Feed that into the ballast, after its 'un-inverting section' (its SMPS). This would avoid the two troublesome middle steps, from DC to AC, and AC to DC again. Some other members have done this. But the voltage would need to match up.

Universal lab supply and ignitor sure is a nice solution if I can find a reasonable set.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

OK, enough speculation; I'm sure many of you are getting sick of it, as am I. It is time to do something! :scowl:

I just ordered TWO Philips MSR400 SA lamps. One is new, one is open box and appears to be slightly used. The latter will be for initial testing.

I also ordered one GY9.5 lamp holder, and a 40 mm vaneaxial PC fan with fairly high stall pressure, about 1" WP, to provide some lamp cooling flow through what will more or less be a 5mm concentric slot around the 40 mm diameter lamp base.

Some of Philips' lamp specs show a minimum required cooling flow. Some do not. MSR SA lamps do NOT. So, I am thinking they may be able to operate un-cooled, but I will try a low level of cooling and see how that works. I can thermocouple the base (250C limit), but not the critical crimp area that destructs at 500C, or the envelope that destructs at 1000C, so it will be a guess at best.

I did not buy a ballast, yet. I plan to wire up the base and bulb, grab my welding helmet, and take the lot to our local 'indoor garden center' to see if they are willing to try to sell me a MH ballast by attempting to fire my lamp with it.

Parts should be here in about a week.

Aside from the danger of injury and fire, if the lamp overheats and bursts, is it likely to seriously damage my reflector surface? I think so, but would love to hear otherwise, if anybody here has experienced such a lamp failure.

If I actually get the thing running, I think I should stress test it for an hour or two inside something a bit stronger, with only the lamp mount and fan.:duck: Maybe in a section of 4" steel chimney tube with a small viewing opening at lamp level. Better to blow it up there, than in my reflector.

If I use a pinhole in that tube, instead of a viewing hole, it might even project a viewable image of the arc onto paper for monitoring. SA HID Camera Obscura!

 

[BVH]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Years back I had a 150 Watt lamp let go. It left some major scratches from the big fragments and the entire reflector was heavily orange peeled from the small pieces of Quartz. Pretty much destroyed. I'd definitely test run it like you say, in something else. That is also the beauty of having the lamp housing. That's its' job - a test bed. Good luck with the testing!

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

OK, will do the testing for sure, then! Appreciate the input.

 

[LightSward]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

If you had success with the 100 watt HID, then the 1,200 watt HMI would be decent. Did you look into Jenbo..? Work well on bad sine-wave inverters and poor voltage control circuits.. I've used them for a few years, bulb and ballast with ignitor is:

- http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo_1200W_Lamp_Ballast?osCsid=56be2ac470a1662449f14b7411c10653 ballast: $420.00 mailed regular US mail, fits in palm of hand...yes..1,200 watts HMI lightweight.

- http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Osram_Sylvania_HSR_1200-60_Replacement_Jenbo_NSK1200 bulb: $128.25, comes in regular US mail, lightweight.

I'm working on spinning my own reflectors out of steel and aluminum. Was using fiberglass molded on wax covered, spun concrete.

the Gorilla 36 inch totally homemade reflector using a Jenbo 1,200 watt HMI bulb and ballast.

Mummy Mountain mile long beam shot

Here you can see the top of Mummy Mountain a mile from this parking lot, lit by the Gorilla searchlight.


Another Day view:

Mummy Mountain with Lodge, Church and Condo Complex

Mummy Mountain with Lodge, Church and Condo Complex visible at base.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Thanks for checking in, Lightsward!

I am quite familiar with your builds; I think I have read every page. That is some inspiring work, developing the form and layup techniques for reflector fabrication:thumbsup:. Your lights are awesome. When you need to build a crane to support your light hobby....:bow:.

I've made quite a few things with fiberglass and epoxy. I once cast an epoxy parabola on a record turntable. There are some small concentric ripples, but it worked well for the basic shape. I use it with a microphone. I tried with paraffin, first, but that rippled worse.

Thanks for the lamp tips. I will look into them, but I think the power level @ 1200W is more than I can run from a vehicle's 12V system.

EDIT: OK, that was fast and easy. Thanks a LOT for the info about these ballasts working well on dirty power!

Jenbo has a 400W ballast, a 400W double ended lamp, a 400W single ended lamp, and even a 400W short arc lamp which is listed as an alternate for the Philips MSR 400 SA. That Philips is the lamp I ordered. I expect the Jenbo ballasts should work with their own lamps, so the Jenbo 400W ballast should run lamp, too. Great info.

Ballast $300:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo_400W_Lamp_Ballast

400W double ended lamp $104:http://400W double ended lamp:

400W short arc lamp, single ended $110:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Philips_MSR_400-S_Replacement_Jenbo_NSK400


Goals recap:

I realize I was a little unclear, above, mentioning the 100W HID as a baseline. My testing so far has only been with a 35W HID. My default choice to replace that is a 100W HID. This 100W HID is the 'baseline' I am comparing other lamp options against. I am trying to pick a better lamp system which will significantly outperform that potential 100W HID for beam visibility, without disproportionately increasing the expense - at least not TOO badly. I'm aiming for a power level I can supply from an idling vehicle's 12V alternator. I think that should not be more than 500W lamp power, which might require up to 50A input @12V. Maybe a 575W.

 

[BVH]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Unless total ballast input power is listed, I'd be more conservative and use a factor of 125% to 130% of lamp power. Something closer to 625 Watts for a 500 Watt lamp. IIRC, my Spectrolab Starburst is even higher than that. Of course, I'm talking about Short Arc and not the HMI products - I am not knowledgeable about those.

Regarding the 100 HID...Do you have a specific ballast/lamp combo you are referencing or is that just a power level you're using as a base reference? If something specific, just be cautious of the claimed power to the lamp. So many of the automotive HID ballasts are producing far less than claimed lamp power. And so far, I have not been able to find an "automotive" HID lamp that would run at 100 Watts and live any where near 1,000 hours.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Understood about the 100W automotive HID, yes. Highest actual power I have seen reported is only 86W to the lamp, estimated Lumens 8000, (stolman, here). That's the type of kit I was considering. But, there is no stepping back to that for my final lamp, now!

 

[LightSward]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Thanks for checking in, Lightsward!

I am quite familiar with your builds; I think I have read every page. That is some inspiring work, developing the form and layup techniques for reflector fabrication:thumbsup:. Your lights are awesome. When you need to build a crane to support your light hobby....:bow:.

I've made quite a few things with fiberglass and epoxy. I once cast an epoxy parabola on a record turntable. There are some small concentric ripples, but it worked well for the basic shape. I use it with a microphone. I tried with paraffin, first, but that rippled worse.

Thanks for the lamp tips. I will look into them, but I think the power level @ 1200W is more than I can run from a vehicle's 12V system.

EDIT: OK, that was fast and easy. Thanks a LOT for the info about these ballasts working well on dirty power!

Jenbo has a 400W ballast, a 400W double ended lamp, a 400W single ended lamp, and even a 400W short arc lamp which is listed as an alternate for the Philips MSR 400 SA. That Philips is the lamp I ordered. I expect the Jenbo ballasts should work with their own lamps, so the Jenbo 400W ballast should run lamp, too. Great info.

Ballast $300:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo_400W_Lamp_Ballast

400W double ended lamp $104:http://400W double ended lamp:

400W short arc lamp, single ended $110:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Philips_MSR_400-S_Replacement_Jenbo_NSK400


Goals recap:

I realize I was a little unclear, above, mentioning the 100W HID as a baseline. My testing so far has only been with a 35W HID. My default choice to replace that is a 100W HID. This 100W HID is the 'baseline' I am comparing other lamp options against. I am trying to pick a better lamp system which will significantly outperform that potential 100W HID for beam visibility, without disproportionately increasing the expense - at least not TOO badly. I'm aiming for a power level I can supply from an idling vehicle's 12V alternator. I think that should not be more than 500W lamp power, which might require up to 50A input @12V. Maybe a 575W.

Excellent job so far. Like the welded frame work.

The Jenbo ballast ran all the other brand lamps, just fine..., some 25 years old from West Germany. I have an RV battery the size of automobile battery that will run the 1,200 watt for about ten minutes. I think your idea of using the 500 watt set up sounds reasonable, get 25 minutes run time, more if you leave the engine running...?

I'm just about ready to begin producing all metal parabolic reflectors in the 20-24 inch range. Have mostly built everything I need. I'm spending extra time on precision this time, more than ever, and have been amazed at my results so far.

Good work on this so far.:thumbsup:

 

[Bill Idaho]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Hang on guys, I ran out of popcorn.........................Tonight I'm going to run out and wipe the dust off the VSS-3 housing and parts, just in case this is my holy grail!

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

Hang on guys, I ran out of popcorn.........................Tonight I'm going to run out and wipe the dust off the VSS-3 housing and parts, just in case this is my holy grail!

Bill, what did you think of the ballast above for your VSS? Appropriate at all?

 

[Bill Idaho]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

It sounds better than anything else that has been mentioned. Changing the batteries in my flashlight pretty well taxes the limit of my electrical know-how, but if the right combo of ballast and bulb appear, as a certified machinist, I'll build whatever I need to. As long as it is a relatively simple plug things together and candlepower happens.....I'm in. 1000 watts would be about right. I believe the fan is still intact, although it might need to be wired, as most of the wiring was yanked out.
A good poker player never shows his hand, but I'm good up to about $400-500. It sounds like I can stay well within that.

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

No lamps in the mail today. Was hoping.


As close as I can tell, the MSR 400 SA lamps I ordered are Short Arc Metal Halide lamps with Iodine as the halide. MSR is listed in cross references as Philips' alternative to Osram's HMI lamps, often cataloged under the same 'HMI Lamps' heading. The MSR short arc versions are listed in the same section. HMI lamps have a listed color temp of 5600k, same as the MSR 400 SA.

I mention this because there isn't a lot if technical info to be found on MSR lamps, but there is quite a bit about MHI lamps. As far as I can tell, the two are technically equivalent. So I am applying what I can find about HMI lamps to my project, until or unless I find that is a poor assumption.

EDIT: Metal Halide lamps are AC lamps, as opposed to short arc Xenon or mercury lamps like the XBO and HBO - the latter operate on DC. AC inverters are thus required for the MH lamps. AC lamps have symmetrical electrodes, and 2 hot(ter) spots in the arc, one near each electrode. DC lamps have one small (cathode), and one large, (Anode) electrode. And one hot spot in the arc. The metal halides have effectively larger hot spots for a given power level, and also more lumens due to higher efficiency.

Here are some links with more info about Metal Halide HID lamps. As a new user of the technology, I found them helpful.

Here is one from Edison Tech Center which describes various types of these lamps, including HMI and Short Arc. (This whole site seems dedicated to explaining electrical technology of all kinds, with plenty on lighting):
The Metal Halide Lamp - How it works.

Next one is specific to short arc, and a bit more technical. Good section on hazards and safety precautions! Also some info on ballast requirements, and a brief section on short arc HMI lamps. Note that HMI lights are technically medium-arc not a 'true' short arc:

Short Arc / Compact Source Lamps



This one is more specific yet - Wikipedia HMI entry

 

[JP Labs]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

I know that the glass high bay lens that I put in front of my reflector will block most of the UV. Metal Halide lamps often have an outer glass envelope added specifically to block UV. MSR lamps do not have this envelope, and they do emit intense UV light. They NEED to have this UV reduced to a safe level. Is the glass safety lens enough? I expect so, since this is one of it's main purposes. But most or all intended lamps for high bay lights have that extra envelope. On the other hand, high bay lights shine on people all day long, day after day, so the permissible level would be correspondingly lower than for a short-use spotlight not aimed at people.

Absorption depends upon thickness. Regular Soda Lime glass will reportedly stop all UVC, all UVB, and a majority of UVA. Polycarbonate is supposed to be much better at blocking UV. I could make a polycarbonate lens easily enough, but it would be less durable, and might melt.

Aside from getting a spectrometer, how can I assess the emitted UV level? One suggestion I read was to illuminate super white copy paper, and to look for fluorescence. Any blue glow indicates UV. So, using a fluorescent dye of some sort is one way. Phosphors won't work; they charge with visible light, too. Flourescence would give no indication of relative strength.

The best idea I can think of is to use photrochomic eyeglasses. I believe only UV will darken the tint. I could cover 1/2 of the light source with a thickness of polycarbonate, and place the glasses so that one lens receives full light, and one gets polycarbonate-filtered light. If only the lens on the unblocked side darkens, and it darkens a lot faster than it would in direct sunlight, then that would indicate significantly more UV than in sunlight. If both lenses darken equally fast, then they are sensitive to visible light, and the method won't work. The result is still subjective, because even with a stopwatch, it relies on judging how dark a tint has become. But at least it could provide some relative indication of UV intensity.

Does anybody have creative ideas for how to detect UV light amidst a lot of visible light, and gauge it's intensity?

 

[BVH]

Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

I am a very safety conscious person. I worked for a public agency with an aggressive safety officer in the office next door. It was drilled into me for 34 years. So this may sound counter to my past experiences. You're never going to want to point the light at anyone so UV emissions should not really matter. And a momentary "hit" at some distance is not going to do any damage. Eye damage will occur before any burn damage. I remember someone foolishly putting their hand in front of (2" away from the window) Larry Black's VSS-3 at a get-together. He did, indeed get a slight burn on his hand. There is no UV spec given for the lamps you're considering? But again, not sure I'd concern myself assuming you're aggressive in safety procedures when using the light.