Scouting, SAR light

[Bugge]

Hi

I need some help finding a light i can use for scouting camps. Im a scoutleader for 6-8 years kids. For that i want a light close to a SAR light, just in case that we have to search in the dark. We suddenly dont hope that will happend. But just for insurance i want a good light for searching and scouting use.

For now i have a ledlenser t7m. Im actually quite happy for that light i gives me. But!

If i could get a light, lets say..

-Twice or more powerfull in lumen.
-Distance aprox the same. I think the distance of t7m is okay. The flood is 70/30 for me.
-Runtime is very important for me, im not for rechargeable lights. Lights can not be used while it recharge, i would rather carry 2 sets of batteries in my pocket so the ight can run all night.
-Price range: 100-200$

What light do you think i should look for?

Thank you

 

[trailhunter]

Thrunite TN42 is my recommendation.

 

[Timothybil]

Look at the Nitecore P30 and the Lumintop GT Mini. Both are singe 18650 cell lights with a nice center beam and a good spill that doesn't overpower. The P30 lists around $60 USD, and the GT Mini around $50.
For a personal EDC I carry the EA11, but Nitecore has discontinued it. Their EC11 is the same light except CR123/18350 instead of AA/14500. Another good light but a little large would be the GT Micro, the Mini's little brother. It too is a 14500 light.

 

[scout24]

Malkoff Hound Dog 18650. Bulletproof, kid proof, single cell, great runtime at posted output without stepdown, simple as heck to use (no complicated UI in the heat of the moment) outstanding all-around beam pattern and bright.

 

[LEDite]

I have about 30 LED lights, which I have used for camping with kids. The one I would choose for your application is a single 18650 cell with a fairly large Zoom lens that can light up a wide area or focus down to a penetrating beam. The UniqueFire UF-1505 is the one I use. It is pocketable, only ~ $25.

 

[bykfixer]

Maglite has some that are pretty bright, have that Maglite throw and can operate in a very useable 20 lumen battery sipping mode.

The 3C ML50 is more packable than the 3D ML300 but runtime is better with the D size due to fuel tank size.

Box stores like WalMart and HomeDepot carry them. If they have the new 2C ML25 showing 192 lumens that is a throw champ with a pencil beam that won't degrade your peripheral night adapted vision. It has a better run time than the previous 2C at 173 lumens. Plus it has low.

The 177 lumen 3C is a throw champ too with 17 hour runtime. The 173 lumen aint no slouch but runtime was a lot less than the 3C that opted for some dimming to aid in runtime where the 2C was rock solid output brightness until the batteries gave up, which is around 2 hours.

And there 2aaa minimag is pretty bright along with being shirt pocket friendly.

Maglite doesn't generate a lot of excitement like they did long ago. But they are still built to be reliable and made of US parts by American workers in Ontario California. (side note some parts of Maglite may be non US sourced like German CREE LED's.)

 

[xxo]

A 3 or 4 D cell Mag ML300's have a ton of throw and really good run times on ordinary alkaline D's. If you want to maximize run time use the "low" mode (actually more of a medium mode), which is plenty bright and with days of runtime. The lower "eco mode" is great for normal flashlight use around camp and the run times are near endless.

 

[Keitho]

I've been looking for a companion to my tactical/thrower Acebeam L16 (I got a vn version, modded for a warmer LED). The L16 might be a good option--easy UI, tailswitch is always turbo, side switch cycles modes, USB charging, and a fair price. When searching I came across the Klarus XT21X, which I'm now considering. I'm not sure about having two switches on the tail. But, compared to your T7m, the XT21X will be about 1.1" longer, .7 oz heavier with the battery, and about the same head diameter. For the slight bit of extra size and weight over the T7m, you get USB charging, and also a swappable battery; it comes with a cell; it is capable of short bursts at 4000 lumens and ANSI range of 316m (compared to the T7m ratings of 400 lumens/240m).

Think about USB charging, if you already carry a battery pack for topping off your cellphone and other devices. One less thing in the pack; and, reduces the chance of a spare high energy cell getting accidentally shorted in your pack or by a scout.

I'd always consider a skylumen version, which is still under your budget and would let you get a warmer LED (I always like warmer colors outdoors at night); but, the stock version would be a nice value too.

Maybe an even better thrower bargain would be the Emisar, D1 and/or D1s. Get five of them for your budget, in different colors. You know what makes a good spare battery holder for an Emisar D1? Another Emisar D1!

 

[Poppy]

Hi

I need some help finding a light i can use for scouting camps. Im a scoutleader for 6-8 years kids. For that i want a light close to a SAR light, just in case that we have to search in the dark. We suddenly dont hope that will happend. But just for insurance i want a good light for searching and scouting use.

For now i have a ledlenser t7m. Im actually quite happy for that light i gives me. But!

If i could get a light, lets say..

-Twice or more powerfull in lumen.
-Distance aprox the same. I think the distance of t7m is okay. The flood is 70/30 for me.
-Runtime is very important for me, im not for rechargeable lights. Lights can not be used while it recharge, i would rather carry 2 sets of batteries in my pocket so the ight can run all night.
-Price range: 100-200$

What light do you think i should look for?

Thank you

I'm an ASM in our scout troop, and a member of our local CERT team.
When we did a training for a wooded area SAR, it was my partner who discovered the manikin they threw into the ravine. I realized that if it were a night SAR, we would never have found it with any of my lights. I came here for a recommendation for a wooded area SAR light. Your T7M is better than the lights I had at the time, but it is still terrible, mainly because of the power supply. I opted for a Thrunite TN30. It is a triple LED that takes 3 18650 LiIon batteries. I bought 6 batteries so I could run the light near full power all night.

Let's talk about batteries and how they work.
Alkalines, Rechargeable NiMH, and rechargeable LiIon.

LED output is very voltage sensitive. I can't write a thesis on the subject because I don't know it well enough, but I think I can get by. As battery voltage drops, so does the LED output. As the LED output drops, its amperage demand on the battery drops. As the amperage demand on the battery drops, the longer it takes for the battery to use up its total capacity.

To obtain an output double of what you already have (400 lumens), you will have to supply about 2000 to 2250 milli-amperes @ 3+ volts to get near 800 lumens.

Alakline cells are terrible for high output lights. Your little AAA batteries are pushed to their max at 400 lumens. And they can't maintain that level of output for long. My guess is that at 15-20 minutes they are at about 50% output. Alkalines drop their voltage rapidly at first, and then linger on for a while (depending upon the demand) and with LEDs at a low output level.

If you want to run alkalines, get a three D cell light that outputs no more than 400 lumens. With that you'll get through the whole night even though you may need to swap out the cells near day-break. If you get a 1000 lumen light you will certainly need to swap out the batteries before the night is through.

The long run times that others have posted about maglites are true, but for most of the hours, the light is too dim to be use-able for SAR. The demands placed on the battery to get 800-1000 lumens cause them to drop voltage rapidly so that the output also drops. It will then run at a low output for many hours, but again the low output may not be what you are looking for.

On the other hand, rechargeable NiMH and LiIon batteries of similar capacities have a straighter line of discharge than alkalines. They will hold their voltages until they are nearly depleted. You'll get shorter run-times, but at relatively higher levels of output. In a SAR situation, if you are looking for higher output, and are willing to swap out batteries, you'll get much better service from rechargeables.

Now if we discuss battery capacities, a single AA cell is equal to about 3-4 AAA cells. and a single 18650 LiIon is equal to about 3-4 AA cells. Therefore a single 18650 LiIon cell is equal to 9-12 AAA cells. FYI, your 18V LiIon powered drill has 5-10 18650 cells in it, depending upon the size and capacity of the battery pack.

Either NiMH or 18650 LiIon cells can be charged, topped off before the trip, and spares can be charged while the light is in use (with a car USB port if necessary).

If you would like to check out how different batteries and chemistries perform under varying loads check out HKJ's site @
https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

When I go camping with the scouts, I bring more lights than I personally need, but I bring extra lights to share with others in-case a kid goes missing.

I use an 18650 headlamp, one that has a mix of flood and throw.
I also have a couple Convoy S2+ lights.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?415313-Convoy-S2-measurements-(7135*8-3B)

One with the biscotti software that gives a particularly low low, that I use for a tent light with a diffuser, but it can be used for short distance SAR work. Better than most lights others carry.

I also pack a couple, maybe three Convoy C8 lights, with holsters. These are specifically give away, loaners.

My grandson is always with me, and he prefers, more than any others the Home Depot Defiant triple led lights that run on 3C cells. I made adapters for them to run on a single 18650 battery. They light up a 70-100 foot path out to 100-150 feet. He brings one, and I usually bring a spare.

The best part of all of this is that each of these lights can be had for less than $15.

Batteries that used to cost $18 each are now obtainable for about $6-8 each.
I think that a four port charger can be had for about $20.

 

[Timothybil]

I'm sorry, but your statement about voltages is wrong. Yes, as a cell depletes, its voltage drops. Any modern LED light will have a driver circuit that converts the voltage available from the cell(s) to the voltage needed to light the LED. As the source voltage drops, the driver circuit will draw more amps to compensate. The operative term is 'Power', as in volts x amps, or watts. For any given mode setting, the LED needs a certain amount of power. so if the voltage from the source is dropping, the amperage needed increases. But the increased amperage draw increases the speed of depletion of the cell(s), so it is a diminishing curve. An LED light with a good driver circuit will continue to produce the same approximate output until the source is so depleted that the power is just not there any more. What happens then depends on the driver. Some just quit, and the light goes out. Some will blink the light a few times before going out. Others will start dropping the output of the light until there just isn't any power left. Be very leery of three cell AAA, AA, C, or D lights. Unless the information with the light says something about them being regulated, it more than likely will be directly driven, without a driver circuit. That means that the output will start diminishing as soon as the light is first turned on, and continuing to diminish until the cells are depleted. Most of the lights one finds in the brick and mortar stores for under $30 are like this.

If you are serious about SAR, you will have two or preferably three sets of cells with you, all charged up. You will have a USB charger for recharging them. For a power source you will need a wall wart, car charger, charged up power bank(s), and or suitable solar panels, depending on what power is available at your location. Depending on the weather, time of day, and season of the year, you might be using that light for more than 12 hrs straight, and at the higher output levels necessary for distance seeing, that means more than one set of cells. And you are going to want a backup light as well. Probably not as powerful as your primary light, but powerful enough to see what you are doing if your primary light fails. If I were doing SAR I would have three, of diminishing output.

If SAR is part of your duties, then you have a powerful responsibility to do it right. For me, failing in my responsibility because I didn't adequately prepare would crush me. There is a reason for our Mantra "Two Is One, and One is None"

 

[Bugge]

Thank you all :thumbsup:

As you probably allready have noticed, my birth language is not english. Im from little Denmark :wave:

#2
The thrunite tn42 is a light i have looked at severel times but it has not convinced me all the way. Yes, it seems to be a very good thower for searching in long range, but as good at is for that. I think that it is quite as bad as it good on close range scouting for big area light?

Please tell me if im wrong on this?

One of thing a really like with the T7M is the big wide angle it have. If i just could have this times 2 or more and the possibility to adjust the output. That could be nice.

#3
The lumintop GT micro... Dammm... I love this little thrower... I think i will buy a few of those to have in the house and maybe swap my daughters ledlenser F1. I think see will be better of with the micro instead of the F1.

Nitecore P30 also looks sweet but.. im not convinced yet


#4
Malkoff Hound Dog 18650 looks very interesting and easy for kids to use... Do i understand it right? Do i need to build it online before buying??


#5
Definitly looks interesting because of the price.. We could have them as a borrowed lights for kids that dont have a flashlight or the parents have bought the cheapest poor light.


#6 and #7

Sorry to say.. But Maglite is just not working for me.. I dont like them.. For 15 years ago it was something
#8
I looked at the XT21X and seems quite nice to have.. A little bigger than T7M but its okay for me.
About the charging lights.. Maybe you have convinced me to try it, but i would prefer those where i can change battery as well :twothumbs

#9
About cells an voltage i have no knowlegde about that But im thinking about that a 18650 light is better for both output and runtime vs aa/aaa cells. My T7M with 4 aaa cells goes very quick down in output, so i change the battery to often than i should :thumbsdow
#10
What would you have chosen if you should chose a light for SAR?

 

[Timothybil]

For sheer 'reach out and see someone' I would use my TM16GT, which can throw 1 km for a few minutes, and probably more than half that for three hours. The drawback is that it takes four 18650 cells, and can't use primary CR123A cells at all, which means twelve cells for a single day's use. That's not practical unless there is a source of AC power to power the charger.
The P30 will reach out 600m for a little while, and more practically about 300m for the same three hours. But it only takes one 18650, which greatly increases my recharge options.
For a second, backup light, I would probably take my EA11 or Lumintop GT Micro, both of which use 14500 rechargeable cells, with a run time of a couple hours. For a third light I would take my Surefire G2 with the Lumens Factory LED drop in. It will take either a 16650 cell or two CR123A primary cells, for a one to two hour run time.
My P30 primary would be effective for an all-night search with a couple of extra cells. My backup light would allow continued searching, but at a reduced range, for the rest of the night. My G2 would only sufficient to get me back to base if my other two lights failed.

 

[aginthelaw]

Don't forget to include a decent headlamp: thrunite th10, acebeam h30, Fenix hl55 in case you need your hands free for climbing.

 

[Bugge]

For sheer 'reach out and see someone' I would use my TM16GT, which can throw 1 km for a few minutes, and probably more than half that for three hours. The drawback is that it takes four 18650 cells, and can't use primary CR123A cells at all, which means twelve cells for a single day's use. That's not practical unless there is a source of AC power to power the charger.
The P30 will reach out 600m for a little while, and more practically about 300m for the same three hours. But it only takes one 18650, which greatly increases my recharge options.
For a second, backup light, I would probably take my EA11 or Lumintop GT Micro, both of which use 14500 rechargeable cells, with a run time of a couple hours. For a third light I would take my Surefire G2 with the Lumens Factory LED drop in. It will take either a 16650 cell or two CR123A primary cells, for a one to two hour run time.
My P30 primary would be effective for an all-night search with a couple of extra cells. My backup light would allow continued searching, but at a reduced range, for the rest of the night. My G2 would only sufficient to get me back to base if my other two lights failed.

The idea with P30 and backup light as lumintop micro (I want that light anyway) sounds like a good combo. P30 mid/high is on paper 50/100% of my T7M and at least 3 times the runtime, but the P30 is a thrower so it will not spread the light as good as my T7M or am im wrong about that?

I have looked at the runtime on GT micro, sadly it goes very fast down in lumen, on turbo it´s down to 10% after just 33 minutes. Or from 1000 lumen to aprox 400 lumen in only 3 minutes.

Don't forget to include a decent headlamp: thrunite th10, acebeam h30, Fenix hl55 in case you need your hands free for climbing.

Sure...! I also have that in my mind, these you named is powerfull - If there is a headlamp that can zoom-throw and zoom-out and spread the light in close range(0-3meters) for work/scouting?

 

[Keitho]

#8
I looked at the XT21X and seems quite nice to have.. A little bigger than T7M but its okay for me.
About the charging lights.. Maybe you have convinced me to try it, but i would prefer those where i can change battery as well :twothumbs

Just to be clear, on the Acebeam L16 and the Klarus XT21X, you can change batteries. You can also plug the light in to a USB outlet in order to charge the cell that is in the light. When I travel, I often bring my L16vn because I can use it to recharge cells that I can then swap for use in other devices.

 

[Poppy]

I'm sorry, but your statement about voltages is wrong. <SNIP>

I don't think so, a few years back I thought differently, but was corrected by those who know more than I. However I think you did a great job describing how a light with a regulating driver works, and drains the battery :thumbsup:

Regarding a suggested light for SAR I suppose that the terrain, within which you'll be searching, is a important consideration. A kid in highly contrasting clothing, on a barren rocky mountain-side, may be found with a thrower, a 200 yards away, beyond that, you may need a spotting scope to use with the light, especially if he is not moving. But a fallen child, in a field of grass 18 inches high may be hard to spot 150 feet away, even in broad daylight.

I would give one of the Fenix TK35 lights a serious consideration. One model or the other will have a little more throw, or more flood, depending upon LED and your particular needs. They run on 2-18650 batteries in parallel so they get good run-times and as Timothybill stated, they are regulated to give consistent output. They are not too heavy to carry in hand all night.

Unless my adrenaline was pumping, I wouldn't want to carry a heavier 3-4 cell light in hand all night.

I'd certainly be wearing a headlamp.

I'd also carry a thrower so that I could look across a ravine, (so that I don't have to cross that cold stream and get all wet). I recently purchased a
Astrolux FT03 SST40-W 2400lm 875m NarsilM v1.3 USB-C Rechargeable 2A 26650 21700 18650 LED Flashlight - Neutral White 5000K

It is a worthwhile consideration for a relatively small thrower. It is powered by a 26650 cell which would give longer run-time, but can also be powered by an 18650 cell. Despite the fact that I would prefer to have all lights run on the same battery, I'd bring a spare 26650 for it.

There are ton's of options out there.

 

[Bugge]

I currently waiting for the cheap UniqueFire UF-1505 /L2 1200LM[FONT=OpenSans, Arial] to arrive in the mailbox. Then the more exspensive has to wait a little longer...

Im trying to figure wich 18650 battery there is the best for a flashlight. Im thinking on buying the nitecore D2 charger, If you mean another charger is better? Please let me know...

What 18650 should i use for my flashlights?[/FONT]

 

[Timothybil]

What 18650 should i use for my flashlights?

The first question to ask is what kind of load will the light draw from the cell. If it is under two amps than almost any good cell will work. You will have to decide if you want protected or unprotected, there are proponents of both options.

If the draw will be larger than 2-2.5A, than you will need to find a cell that can easily sustain that load. Very few of the available cells will have a protection circuit. A high drain cell will have a different chemical makeup to support the increased load, and that makeup will result a little less capacity than a low drain cell, so don't get caught up when comparing cells. Most high drain cells with identify with INR or IMR, as opposed to the low drain cells that are usually ICR. There are some newer formulations coming out that don't use any of these identifiers, so don't let that through you.

I use the Samsung 30Q cells. They work well in my high drain lights, and since I bought several in a group buy, I use them in my other lights as well.

The last thing to watch for is flat top vx button top. Some lights will only use button top lights because they have physical polarity protection that requires a button top. Others don't care, and it is your responsibility to make sure you get the polarity right.

 

[PartyPete]

Not a scoutmaster, but involved on a volunteer basis with my son's scout pack for the past 5 years.

I've used an assortment of lights and what they all have in common is that they have been dropped, seen heavy rain, dropped in streams, piles of snow and seen plenty of abuse. Haven't lost one yet but plenty of others in the group have. So for me at least, I'm not taking anything over $100 as there's never a guarantee it's even going to make it home with you after a trip.

That said, I've had good luck with Fenix and Thrunite as they both generally have that good balance of durability and a fair price point. However, if potential loss isn't a big deal than there's definitely great choices at $100+.

I actually donated a dozen Wowtac A1 to our troop years back and while some were lost, all of the remainders are still working fine. At $20 a pop you can't really go wrong.

 

[lightfooted]

A little late to the discussion but that's okay as there is a lot of useful information here already. Just a few things I want to comment on: Most of the lights listed here have optional lenses that can be purchased and fitted over the light. Getting a diffuser lens for a thrower would make it usable in camp and for up close duties as well as just creating a wall of moderate level light. I just don't think it makes sense anymore to try to power a serious light from alkaline or NiMH cells although the NiMh would be better than alkaleaks. It's simple physics, alkalines and NiMH do not have the energy density that a Li-Ion has. General purpose camp lights sure...but if you intend on relying on it to search for someone that could be injured, stick to Li-Ion cells.

If I were picking out a SAR light a little while back, what first jumped to my mind was something along the lines of the Olight SR90, but that's prohibitively expensive for such a single use type of light although I'm sure it does it VERY well. Plus it has been surpassed in almost every way (except maybe actual distance) by more recent lights. Now? I'm not so sure, I would probably do some research and look at lights using the Cree XHP35 or XHP50 and XHP70.

Something I was thinking about is that the newer Klarus lights have a setting that allows the secondary tail switch to activate low output, while the main tail switch always activates turbo output. This is how I have my XT11GT set up for work.