So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

[Grizzman]

I agree that my initial post regarding the bezels wasn't completely clear. The Bravo's modularity is a feature shared with only a small number of modern light series. If you were only interested in the AVS head, then you could buy just the body and tailcap from Oveready, and the head from somewhere else, and be done.


As you stated, the crenellated bezel gives you access to a large range of drop-ins, making the light very flexible. It also makes the light a size that most people (except the truly skinny jeans crowd) can EDC.

An M61N gives an outstanding multi-purpose beam that's good for most typical use scenarios.
I can use it with an M60 for maximum throw that'll comfortably fit into the front pocket of any jeans I wear.
If I prefer maximum flood, but not 650 lumens of it, I can use an M60F instead.
For longer run times at useful 50, 80, 120, 175 (among others) lumen outputs, I can use an M61L or LL or LLL drop-in in cool tint, neutral tint, or even Nichia 219.

In the future, if Malkoff Devices releases a new M-Series drop-in with a characteristic that interests you, it'll also work in the Bravo. If you buy it, likely for under $50, don't really like it, it can be easily sold here, and that money can go towards another one, easily purchased from here. I've personally bought, sold, and traded almost 10 different Malkoff drop-ins at CPF since joining.

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Thanks a lot for the great explanations guys! For convenience I want to just get the AVS head from Elzetta along with the other lens so I have both the flood & throw. However I'll still have the set up for drop ins if I want to do that later. Does the AVS head yield more power/lumens than any of the drop in options? I was thinking maybe that's the case since you say it's larger than the drop in set up.

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Oh and out of curiosity, would you guys actually drive nails with the lens of the Bravo like in the one video (just to show it off), or would that make you cringe? I think there was another video where a guy chopped a coconut apart with the crenellated bezel.

 

[Grizzman]

The AVS on the Bravo delivers 650 lumens from two CR123s. Output is reduced to approximately 500 lumens from a single Li-Ion, and I run one of my Bravo AVS setups exclusively from 18650s. The only Malkoff drop-ins that exceed 650 lumens are in the M91 series. According to flashlightguide.com's review, the M91B runs for about 30 minutes from two AW 18350s. When these same two 18350s are used with the AVS head, the increased voltage puts it into Charlie mode, in which it delivers 900 lumens, also for about 30 minutes. I don't own one, but the M91B's beam profile is completely different than what's delivered by the optic of the AVS. Flashlightguide's High Output overview includes side by side beamshots between the AVS heads and the M91A, which is similar to the M91B. The B has a slightly more focused spot, with roughly identical spill.

The larger head of the AVS head delivers much greater lux on target at distance than any Malkoff with a reflector. The large optic focuses the photons quite well. The increased lumen count of the AVS over the optic based M60, in addition to the larger optic allows the AVS to flat out embarrass the M60 in a throw contest.

The low cost of the standard bezel is a prime reason to include it with the body. If it were near the price of an AVS, then I would have simply stated to get the body and tailcap from Oveready and the AVS from Elzetta.

I bought a used Bravo with crenellated drop-in head from CPF, and the previous owner had beat on it a fair bit. I'd have no reservations with screwing the damaged head and tailcap onto a body and beating on it some more, including driving nails if it were necessary (but not simply for fun).

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Ok thank you, I will definitely go with the AVS head then and probably just stick with that set up.

The AVS on the Bravo delivers 650 lumens from two CR123s. Output is reduced to approximately 500 lumens from a single Li-Ion, and I run one of my Bravo AVS setups exclusively from 18650s. The only Malkoff drop-ins that exceed 650 lumens are in the M91 series. According to flashlightguide.com's review, the M91B runs for about 30 minutes from two AW 18350s. When these same two 18350s are used with the AVS head, the increased voltage puts it into Charlie mode, in which it delivers 900 lumens, also for about 30 minutes.

Are 18350s non-rechargeable like 123s, or are they rechargeable like 18650? Ugh I thought 18350s were like 18650s but considering you choose to run your AVS Bravo with a 18650 and a power loss I'm thinking 18350s are a bigger version of 123s...meaning a non-rechargeable EXPENSIVE throw away battery! 123s are great for occasional use lights but I would use this everyday.

EDIT...lol trying to find the answer I confused myself even more, I didn't even know 123s can be rechargeable! So now I'm also wondering why people would choose 18650 over 2 123s.

 

[Johnnyh]

Beat on nails with with a new Bravo? No....hell no. That is definitely cringe-worthy! The Elzetta is one tough light and yes, guys do all kinds of torture tests (300 ft. Helicopter drops, run-over-with-truck, throw in creeks, freeze in ice blocks, take apart under water, etc. and I thank them for it but if I need to show anybody how tough my light is, I'll show em the videos! [emoji1][emoji1]

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Beat on nails with with a new Bravo? No....hell no. That is definitely cringe-worthy!

You're right I'd cringe too.

300 ft. Helicopter drops

No way

run-over-with-truck

I wonder if the boring job by Oveready compromises the strength much.

throw in creeks

This I wouldn't mind

freeze in ice blocks

Not bad I'd do that

take apart under water

Nah

 

[Johnnyh]

Beast, rechargeable 123's will work but won't last very long as compared to one 18650. They have a very short run time and do not give much warning when they are low. They just go out. The 18650 will produce power for much longer until it begins to fade away gradually. You will know it needs to be recharged before you loose all light. Stay with 18650 and maybe have some regular disposable cr123's as backup. Here's a good 18650....

http://www.illumn.com/18650-keeppow...ton-top.html?gclid=CLGCis686NECFQtWDQod1tMK5g

Here's the charger I use.

http://www.illumn.com/nitecore-d2-digicharger.html

The charger can be used for a wide variety of batteries.

A something that may help you later...the number on li-ion rechargeables refer to their physical size...an 18650 is 18 mm in diameter and 65 mm long...a 16650 is 16 mm in diameter and 65 mm long...you get the picture. There's a lot more to the battery world than this of course. But those above are a solid start.

 

[Johnnyh]

Also beast, I would be very hard pressed to differentiate between 500 lumens and 650 lumens in the real world. You're not loosing a lot on the 18650.

 

[Grizzman]

......and now the battery discussion begins.

In the 18mm diameter size, cells are available in ~35, ~50, and ~65 mm lengths.

CR123s aren't rechargeable, but in the same size, we have what are called RCR123 or 16340 cells, which are re-chargeable. These can be either protected or unprotected Li-Co (typical rechargeable Li-Ion) or unprotected IMR (a somewhat safer chemistry). RCR123s and 16340s have a capacity of only about 500-700 mAh.

18350s are roughly the same length as CR123s, but are 18mm in diameter instead of 16mm. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR. Capacity for this size typically runs in the 700 to 900 mAh range.

18500s aren't directly compatible with the Bravo, but here's some info anyway. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR (AW's are called 18490). Capacity for this size typically runs in the 1200 to 1500 mAh range.

18650s are roughly the same length as two 18350s. They are available in protected Li-CO, unprotected Li-Co, IMR, and new hybrid IMR chemistry. Capacity of protected and unprotected (also called naked) Li-Co 18650s goes up to 3400 or 3500 mAh. Capacity of traditional IMR 18650s tops out in the 2200 mAh region. Capacity of AW's hybrid 18650 is 3000 mAh.

Running two protected 18350 Li-Ions in series with an AVS or Malkoff M61 drop-in causes the engine to see ~8.4 volts (not including sag and resistance). The output starts out at nearly 900 lumens and operates for a while until cell voltage is reduced enough to cause the head to think that it's being run from two CR123s, at which point it decreases its output to 650 lumens, and continues to operate. As the light is used, each cell is depleted down towards the 2.5 to 2.8 volt lower limit of the cell's protection circuit. Since the head is seeing over 5 volts, it puts out basically full output until....BAM....the protection circuit of one of the cells is tripped, causing the light to go out with no warning. If two naked or IMR cells are used in series, there's no protection circuit to keep the cells from being discharged below 2.5 volts, which is a bad situation.

Using a single 18650 of any chemistry with an AVS head or M61 causes completely different operational behavior. As the cell's voltage drops below ~3.4 volts (Elzetta doesn't advertise the transition voltage), the head/drop-in changes from running in a regulated state to a direct drive state. As the voltage continues to decrease, so does the output. There is lots of warning that the cells are running low, and replacing/charging them is needed. As long as the user is paying attention, there's very little risk of cell damage, even with naked cells, since the output has obviously decreased long before the cell has reached 2.5 volts.

Running the AVS from a single Li-Ion gives me several benefits:
- twice the regulated run time (due to the decreased lumen output)
- long direct drive mode after regulated output ends
- less heat, since I'm running it at about 500 lumens instead of a bit less than 900

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Running two protected 18350 Li-Ions in series with an AVS or Malkoff M61 drop-in causes the engine to see ~8.4 volts (not including sag and resistance). The output starts out at nearly 900 lumens and operates for a while

Charge question, I hear different things, are you supposed to charge lithium batteries often or let them drain a bit before charging, or does it matter? Do you 'Lose a cycle of battery life' each time you charge or was that true for a different battery chemistry? If charging very often is perfectly fine than 2 18350s could be the way to go if you don't care about charging a lot correct?

...until cell voltage is reduced enough to cause the head to think that it's being run from two CR123s, at which point it decreases its output to 650 lumens

So this will be instant, it will look like you just clicked to a lower setting?

, and continues to operate. As the light is used, each cell is depleted down towards the 2.5 to 2.8 volt lower limit of the cell's protection circuit. Since the head is seeing over 5 volts, it puts out basically full output until....BAM....the protection circuit of one of the cells is tripped, causing the light to go out with no warning. If two naked or IMR cells are used in series, there's no protection circuit to keep the cells from being discharged below 2.5 volts, which is a bad situation.

Ok so no problem at all if you use protected, and you don't mind the risk of an instant shut off (or even prefer it to gradual fade out)?

So, if you use PROTECTED 18350s the situation mentioned above, dropping from 900 to 650 won't ever happen anyway because the light will go totally dark before that ever happens??

Using a single 18650 of any chemistry with an AVS head or M61 causes completely different operational behavior. As the cell's voltage drops below ~3.4 volts (Elzetta doesn't advertise the transition voltage), the head/drop-in changes from running in a regulated state to a direct drive state. As the voltage continues to decrease, so does the output.

Does this mean that a regulated state is constant output even as voltage drops?

There is lots of warning that the cells are running low, and replacing/charging them is needed.

Flickering?

Running the AVS from a single Li-Ion gives me several benefits:
- twice the regulated run time (due to the decreased lumen output)
- long direct drive mode after regulated output ends
- less heat, since I'm running it at about 500 lumens instead of a bit less than 900

Why do you care about heat? I was under the impression that all these Elzettas are configured to not over heat. Am I wrong? If I put 2 fresh 18350s in, turn light on 900 lumens and just walk away I can damage the light? I can't imagine a light could heat to the point of burning you and NOT cause damage, so I'm assuming a heat complaint of getting burnt and ruining a flashlight is the same complaint. In my Fenix light it will do heat sensing step down, but if you own a single mode Bravo that's not an option, can it actually burn you and NOT damage the light?

So other than the heat question I think I understand, 2 18350s mean higher power but you'll charge more often, and light may go out instantly (900 lumens from beginning to end). 1 18650 means much more time away from your charger, less power, and a gradual fade at the end. You have great battery knowledge thanks.

 

[Grizzman]

Charge question, I hear different things, are you supposed to charge lithium batteries often or let them drain a bit before charging, or does it matter? Do you 'Lose a cycle of battery life' each time you charge or was that true for a different battery chemistry? If charging very often is perfectly fine than 2 18350s could be the way to go if you don't care about charging a lot correct?

They don't seem to care how often they're charged. They really don't like being fully discharged, and with two small one in series draining them to a low point is easy to do. They prefer to sit at around an 80% of full charge capacity.


So this will be instant, it will look like you just clicked to a lower setting?

I've never put in two 18350s and watched for the change from one output to the other. According to Jim's chart, I'd guess it to be pretty instant. Have you looked through flashlightguide yet?


Ok so no problem at all if you use protected, and you don't mind the risk of an instant shut off (or even prefer it to gradual fade out)?

So, if you use PROTECTED 18350s the situation mentioned above, dropping from 900 to 650 won't ever happen anyway because the light will go totally dark before that ever happens??

There's no problem at all if protected cells are used. I ran two RCR123s for years with M61s, before switching to 16650s. I simply got annoyed at the light going out without any warning.


Does this mean that a regulated state is constant output even as voltage drops?

Yes


Flickering?

Nope, just slowly diminishing output.


Why do you care about heat? I was under the impression that all these Elzettas are configured to not over heat. Am I wrong? If I put 2 fresh 18350s in, turn light on 900 lumens and just walk away I can damage the light? I can't imagine a light could heat to the point of burning you and NOT cause damage, so I'm assuming a heat complaint of getting burnt and ruining a flashlight is the same complaint. In my Fenix light it will do heat sensing step down, but if you own a single mode Bravo that's not an option, can it actually burn you and NOT damage the light?

I don't really care much about heat, but some do, and it is a benefit (though not nearly as important as the others). You are correct that the AVS can be operated at full output for as long as the batteries will allow it to run. While the light won't be damaged by such usage, LEDs really don't like excessive heat, and it's "better" to keep them at a reasonable operating temperature.

Different people have different thresholds for pain. What I may consider merely uncomfortable, another person subjected to the same temperature may consider it torture. An Elzetta won't get so hot to cause physical damage to skin that touches it, but pain is a definite possibility. Jim's review of the High Output lights has a section dedicated to heat.


So other than the heat question I think I understand, 2 18350s mean higher power Yes
but you'll charge more often Yes,
and light may not may, but will, if you don't turn it off first go out instantly
(900 lumens from beginning to end). It will drop down to the 650 lumen level when the cells have been drained enough to cause the head to think it's being fed by two CR123s

1 18650 means much more time away from your charger, less power, and a gradual fade at the end. Correct.

You have great battery knowledge thanks I'm glad to assist.

 

[BeastFlashlight]

Have you looked through flashlightguide yet?

No I'll have to check it out! Thanks again.

 

[Johnnyh]

You're right I'd cringe too.



No way



I wonder if the boring job by Oveready compromises the strength much.



This I wouldn't mind



Not bad I'd do that



Nah

Hahaha! Well, to each his own! Have fun!

 

[vadimax]

They have a very short run time and do not give much warning when they are low. They just go out.

Objection! Yes, the run time is short, but you get an obvious warning when summary voltage of two 16350 in my case drops to 7.3V -- the AVS driver starts to flip between 900 and 650 lm -- as a result you may see a beam brightness vibration. Should be blind to not notice that

 

[Johnnyh]

Objection! Yes, the run time is short, but you get an obvious warning when summary voltage of two 16350 in my case drops to 7.3V -- the AVS driver starts to flip between 900 and 650 lm -- as a result you may see a beam brightness vibration. Should be blind to not notice that

Alright then! Good info to know! Thanks! Objection sustained! [emoji1]

 

[Johnnyh]

......and now the battery discussion begins.

In the 18mm diameter size, cells are available in ~35, ~50, and ~65 mm lengths.

CR123s aren't rechargeable, but in the same size, we have what are called RCR123 or 16340 cells, which are re-chargeable. These can be either protected or unprotected Li-Co (typical rechargeable Li-Ion) or unprotected IMR (a somewhat safer chemistry). RCR123s and 16340s have a capacity of only about 500-700 mAh.

18350s are roughly the same length as CR123s, but are 18mm in diameter instead of 16mm. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR. Capacity for this size typically runs in the 700 to 900 mAh range.

18500s aren't directly compatible with the Bravo, but here's some info anyway. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR (AW's are called 18490). Capacity for this size typically runs in the 1200 to 1500 mAh range.

18650s are roughly the same length as two 18350s. They are available in protected Li-CO, unprotected Li-Co, IMR, and new hybrid IMR chemistry. Capacity of protected and unprotected (also called naked) Li-Co 18650s goes up to 3400 or 3500 mAh. Capacity of traditional IMR 18650s tops out in the 2200 mAh region. Capacity of AW's hybrid 18650 is 3000 mAh.

Running two protected 18350 Li-Ions in series with an AVS or Malkoff M61 drop-in causes the engine to see ~8.4 volts (not including sag and resistance). The output starts out at nearly 900 lumens and operates for a while until cell voltage is reduced enough to cause the head to think that it's being run from two CR123s, at which point it decreases its output to 650 lumens, and continues to operate. As the light is used, each cell is depleted down towards the 2.5 to 2.8 volt lower limit of the cell's protection circuit. Since the head is seeing over 5 volts, it puts out basically full output until....BAM....the protection circuit of one of the cells is tripped, causing the light to go out with no warning. If two naked or IMR cells are used in series, there's no protection circuit to keep the cells from being discharged below 2.5 volts, which is a bad situation.

Using a single 18650 of any chemistry with an AVS head or M61 causes completely different operational behavior. As the cell's voltage drops below ~3.4 volts (Elzetta doesn't advertise the transition voltage), the head/drop-in changes from running in a regulated state to a direct drive state. As the voltage continues to decrease, so does the output. There is lots of warning that the cells are running low, and replacing/charging them is needed. As long as the user is paying attention, there's very little risk of cell damage, even with naked cells, since the output has obviously decreased long before the cell has reached 2.5 volts.

Running the AVS from a single Li-Ion gives me several benefits:
- twice the regulated run time (due to the decreased lumen output)
- long direct drive mode after regulated output ends
- less heat, since I'm running it at about 500 lumens instead of a bit less than 900

Grizzman, Just pulled my Keepower 3500 18650 out of the Bones and tried to put in the new bored Bravo but it's way too tight! Can you tell me specfically what you run in a bored Bravo?

 

[Johnnyh]

Beastman, Please disregard the suggestion on the 18650 Keepower 18650 3500mah...it's too fat to go into the bored out Bravo. Just a heads up!

 

[Grizzman]

Grizzman, Just pulled my Keepower 3500 18650 out of the Bones and tried to put in the new bored Bravo but it's way too tight! Can you tell me specfically what you run in a bored Bravo?

The only protected 18650s I own are AW's 2200, 3100, and 3400 mAh cells. They all fit comfortably in my three bored bodies.

I've been planning to try the KeepPower 3500s since I've had good luck with their 16650s. I likely won't if they won't fit my Elzettas.

 

[Johnnyh]

The only protected 18650s I own are AW's 2200, 3100, and 3400 mAh cells. They all fit comfortably in my three bored bodies.

I've been planning to try the KeepPower 3500s since I've had good luck with their 16650s. I likely won't if they won't fit my Elzettas.

Ok, thanks for that. Much appreciated.