What I found on the shelf today in a major auto parts store

[Alaric Darconville]

They buy all kinda of items for their show vehicles that would not be Legal for use on public roads. But, for displaying the vehicle down to the Sonic or the parking lot of the Mall once a year, its all good. Look at some of the stuff the fellows do to the SEMA vehicles.

If someone hand-made something for that show vehicle, it'd be one thing, but these are items manufactured and introduced into interstate commerce that render the regulated vehicle equipment inoperative. It's not about the car/agricultural equipment/living room the items are going into, it's about the items fitting into the regulated motor vehicle equipment.

I also know folks who buy this kinda stuff for their hunting rigs, trucks, 4 wheelers, and boats. So to each is own.

And they're buying products which are illegal per se. No, not "to each his own"; that's just an outlaw attitude that can get people hurt or killed. It's a form of bullying when someone installs equipment that can cause excessive glare, or ruin the performance of a lamp, as if their desire to "look cool" or "see better" (despite that not being the case) is more important than their own safety and the safety of others.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

The best way for compliance is to force people to carry legal cards for the mods in their car. Back in my youthful days, (around the launch of the 1st The Fast and The Furious) I actually carried the instruction manual for the Philips Blue Vision that I have installed in my car. The DOT compliant declarations were all there. If the police were to pull me over, I would be safe. All the police has to do is to take the offending mod and check it against the legal card. Even today, Philips bundle their Crystal Vision bulbs with legal cards.

You know who else has "legal cards" that really don't mean much? DEPO.

 

[FrankFernucci]

Why does no one carry Phillips, Osram, etc? And why is NHTSA allowing these major companies to stock the shelves with these LED bulbs (Im mainly referring to the Pilot with this question) and how is Sylvania getting away with selling lights for "interior or license plate use only" if they will fit in other places of vehicle...

I found these same Pilot bulbs over the weekend in Wal-Mart and O'Reilly. Although I wasn't surprised to see them in Wal-Mart, seeing them in O'Reilly was shocking because I thought they had a reputation for better quality parts.

I did find Philips LEDs at Pep Boys. The 3157LED has "Stop and Tail" written under the model number, and it doesn't say "For Road Use Only", so I'm assuming it's legal. I'll replace one of the lights and see if there's a noticable difference between the LED and the regular one.

 

[-Virgil-]

Frank, welcome to the board. Please see this thread (especially post #6).

 

[sadtimes]

You know who else has "legal cards" that really don't mean much? DEPO.

Yea, those cards mean nothing, nothing at all, when your sitting on the side of the road with flashing lights behind you.

 

[mdocod]

The State is not responsible for our safety.
Point I'm getting at here, is just because a fixture, or a bulb kit, doesn't have a federal DOT stamp of approval, doesn't necessarily mean that the product can't be legally used somewhere in the US. The vehicle is licensed for operation at the state level, and the driver is licensed to operate the vehicle at the state level. The State has it's own set of laws, and it's own enforcement.

 

[Hilldweller]

Most of them don't/can't/won't meet DOT criteria though, Eric.
Take the IPF H4s that I tested for instance. Miserable, un-aimable. They're spotlights at best and are sold in great numbers in the US by outlets --- some that don't know better and think they're ECE-compliant, some that do know better and just want the bucks.

It's a sure thing to use tested and verified products. It's a gamble to use something you think is okay.
Unless you're willing to pony up the money to have products tested, that is. And I bet that legit aftermarket companies would spend the money if they were sure they'd pass.

 

[-Virgil-]

The State is not responsible for our safety.

"The state" is very much responsible for our safety, in that society sets up rules to protect individuals from harm. That is why we have speed limits, health codes, building codes, traffic laws, licensing requirements for drivers, gasfitters, electricians, doctors, lawyers, and contractors, road signs, lane lines, traffic lights, police forces, fire departments (shall I go on?)...all set forth and/or provisioned by the state.

It is irresponsible, foolish, thoughtless, and childish to take a position that amounts to "Show me where the law says I can't put in a bulb that ruins the safety performance of my turn signals! I dare ya! I double dare ya! HAH! Told ya!".

 

[-Virgil-]

mdocod, I would rather have sent you this as a PM, but your PM box is full, so apparently you've chosen that we'll do it in public.

you are in league with forces that are highly dangerous for me

Oh, dang, you're onto me. I guess the jig is up. Too bad, we even had a secret handshake and everything!

Look, this is really simple and doesn't involve any nefarious "highly dangerous forces" or any other such tinfoil-hat drivel. It works like this: You're welcome to participate here. Keep it on-topic and within the rules.
When you signed up to participate on this forum, you agreed to follow the rules. When you violate the rules, your posts will be edited to remove the violations. Behave yourself like an adult and you won't find your posts edited. Behave like a child and you'll be treated accordingly. That's all.

-Virgil

 

[Mr. Nobody]

Confused, about this thread. I run Orange LEDs in my blinkers with load resistors, I also have white leds for the license plate and interior plus red led stop bulbs in my truck. All standard LEDs no fancy switch backs or silly spring loaded star shaped modules. The only NON led lights are my low beams and high beams and fogs. This is a normal Chevy truck...no rice.

 

[-Virgil-]

Confused, about this thread. I run Orange LEDs in my blinkers with load resistors, I also have white leds for the license plate and interior plus red led stop bulbs in my truck.

You should quickly remove the LEDs from your blinkers and stop lights. They are not safe, effective, or legal. There are now white LEDs from Philips and Osram that work well in the license plate lights, and even some of the off-brand ones do OK in that low-demand (optically "easy") application.

 

[Mr. Nobody]

You should quickly remove the LEDs from your blinkers and stop lights. They are not safe, effective, or legal. There are now white LEDs from Philips and Osram that work well in the license plate lights, and even some of the off-brand ones do OK in that low-demand (optically "easy") application.

I have been running the same setup of LEDs for 5 years ! Without a single burn out or problem. Lol I have also spoke with CHP and the local police department. As far as there and I am conncerned what is illegal and unsafe is those stupid Aftermarket HID lights people use in Cali.

 

[-Virgil-]

I have been running the same setup of LEDs for 5 years

You should still remove the "LED bulbs" you put in, because they are increasing your risk of being in a crash. Your brake lights and turn signals don't (can't) work properly with them. It's great that you haven't been in a crash so far, but that doesn't mean your lights are safe. Think about what you're saying: it is basically the same as "I don't need a seatbelt! I've been driving for 45 years and never wore a seatbelt and I'm still alive and in one piece!" or "Smoking isn't hazardous to health! I've been smoking since age 14, and I'm 66 now, and I don't have cancer or emphysema!". There are vehicles on the road that have managed (so far) not to get hit despite having defective lights that don't work at all, but that doesn't mean brake lights are optional and it's equally as safe to have them as to not have them.

Try an experiment: put the factory-specified filament bulbs back in the brake lights on one side of the truck, then do the comparisons described in post #6 of this thread here. You will likely quickly see what the big deal is.

 

[Mr. Nobody]

You should still remove the "LED bulbs" you put in, because they are increasing your risk of being in a crash. Your brake lights and turn signals don't (can't) work properly with them. It's great that you haven't been in a crash so far, but that doesn't mean your lights are safe. Think about what you're saying: it is basically the same as "I don't need a seatbelt! I've been driving for 45 years and never wore a seatbelt and I'm still alive and in one piece!" or "Smoking isn't hazardous to health! I've been smoking since age 14, and I'm 66 now, and I don't have cancer or emphysema!". There are vehicles on the road that have managed (so far) not to get hit despite having defective lights that don't work at all, but that doesn't mean brake lights are optional and it's equally as safe to have them as to not have them.

Try an experiment: put the factory-specified filament bulbs back in the brake lights on one side of the truck, then do the comparisons described in post #6 of this thread here. You will likely quickly see what the big deal is.

I am unsubscribing from this thread.

 

[-Virgil-]

I am unsubscribing from this thread.

That's a good idea, in case you might accidentally learn something you didn't know before...! ;-)

 

[fastgun]

Mr. Nobody, my state is much like yours in that our state law does not match several aspects of Federal law. This in itself does not mean Federal law and regulations do not apply. When you read through the US Federal code you will find the phrase interstate commerce repeated throughout. It is through this clause in the US Constitution that the Federal government finds authority to regulate automobiles and bulbs etc which have passed from one state to another or have been imported into the USA.

If you could find bulbs made totally within your state and used them on a vehicle made wholly within your state and operated upon state and county roads only, again within your state and never crossed a state line you could use any bulb combination your state deems legal. Or, for that matter any vehicle your state determines to be legal. This highly improbably scenario would not mean the combination would be safe nor provide satisfactory results.

Being legal may not always mean it is right, good or appropriate. This is especially so when I am the driver being blinded by someone else.

 

[-Virgil-]

Being legal may not always mean it is right, good or appropriate. This is especially so when I am the driver being blinded by someone else.

...or, in this case, when you are the driver being shown an inadequate stop light signal because somebody else thought it was clever to monkey with his truck's taillight bulbs.

 

[merlinx454]

Very interesting thread. I installed LED tail/brake lights in my car. The ones I got, made in China (no surprise there) out performed the bulbs that I had in the car. They completly filled the red area. The tail light illumination was as bright and the brake illumination was brighter than the 3157's I removed which were under a year old. The specific brand used is the key here I think. I did the simple test, I compared before and after, tail and brake and they passed according to my observations. At the end of the day, I feel safe that I am not going to be hit brcause of it. With that said, when I installed the amber corner markers, I had different results. They were a different manufacturer (different Chineese kids put them together) and there was minimal difference between the marker and turn signal features. I compared and they failed therefore, they were not used. Not all LEDs are made equal.

 

[Mr. Nobody]

Very interesting thread. I installed LED tail/brake lights in my car. The ones I got, made in China (no surprise there) out performed the bulbs that I had in the car. They completly filled the red area. The tail light illumination was as bright and the brake illumination was brighter than the 3157's I removed which were under a year old. The specific brand used is the key here I think. I did the simple test, I compared before and after, tail and brake and they passed according to my observations. At the end of the day, I feel safe that I am not going to be hit brcause of it. With that said, when I installed the amber corner markers, I had different results. They were a different manufacturer (different Chineese kids put them together) and there was minimal difference between the marker and turn signal features. I compared and they failed therefore, they were not used. Not all LEDs are made equal.

Yes that's right "not all leds are made equal". I went ahead and did some tests this morning and went back to the OE spec bulbs for the stop lights only. The high mount stop is OEM and LED but that is different.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Very interesting thread. I installed LED tail/brake lights in my car. The ones I got, made in China (no surprise there) out performed the bulbs that I had in the car. They completly filled the red area. The tail light illumination was as bright and the brake illumination was brighter than the 3157's I removed which were under a year old.

EPLLA (Effective Projected Luminous Lens Area) is one of the things regulated on those exterior lamps. It's your estimation, and *probably* correct, that the requirement was satisfied. The difference between the major and minor functions' brightnesses (stop lamp and tail lamp) are also regulated. But in addition to the EPLLA and the difference in the major/minor intensities, there's a whole set of zones where the light needs to be shining, and at what minima and maxima.

You say that they were "as bright and brighter" for the two functions, but there are specific differences, and there are specific lighting regions where this all matters. Without testing by instrumentation, it's hard to say if they really worked as well as you'd like to think.

I did the simple test, I compared before and after, tail and brake and they passed according to my observations. At the end of the day, I feel safe that I am not going to be hit brcause of it. With that said, when I installed the amber corner markers, I had different results. They were a different manufacturer (different Chinese kids put them together) and there was minimal difference between the marker and turn signal features. I compared and they failed therefore, they were not used. Not all LEDs are made equal.

Your "observations", but not necessarily correct ones. Perhaps the ones you decided to stick with simply failed slightly less obviously than the other ones that you rejected (and rejected on good grounds; if the difference between major and minor functions isn't sufficient, it makes a signal ineffective).

At the end of the day, you could be thrown under the bus by your insurance company if they decide that the lights you are using still aren't satisfactory.

Yes that's right "not all leds are made equal". I went ahead and did some tests this morning and went back to the OE spec bulbs for the stop lights only.

Yep. Sometimes a "drop-in" is so abysmal it's easy to tell the original design, being built around a particular filament bulb, will only work properly with that filament bulb.