Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?
Thank you all; I got more answers than I could have hoped for. I shall attempt to reply to as many posts as possible (with apologies if I seem to have overlooked yours) for anyone who wishes to continue the dialog.
First let me address this:
I don't understand the reason for your questions. If you want an 18650 light then get one.
It almost sounds like you don't want other people to have AA powered lights.
You don't know me, so let me explain this to you once
: If I ask a question it is because I am sincerely interested in the answer. Other than the obvious figure of speech I do not ask rhetorical or sarcastic questions. I do not "ask" a question as a veiled disparagement or insult. I knew in this case (AA) I must be missing something, and sure enough I was. Contrary to your supposition I expect to be receiving a D40A soon and I was hoping that you all could convince me of its value in using AA cells.
I'm a camper/traveler with a little prepper mixed in and gadgets that used proprietary batteries used to drive to me nuts with the need to pack/carry dedicated chargers and spare cells. I've consolidated all my portable camping/travel/emergency gadgets around Eneloops, pretty much since they were introduced in 2006. A single charger and set spares feeds everything and I have the deep back-ups options of cannibalizing between devices, or buying in any gas station. When I'm away from home, one of the primary functions of my flashlight is to be a battery container from which to cannibalize spare Eneloops (to charge my smartphone for example).
This is probably
the big point that I was overlooking. (The elephant in the room, if you will.) For flashlights I de facto standardized on CR123A batteries when I got my first modern one and retired the MagLites. Further, I don't have any devices I can think of that run on AA batteries besides a couple of TV remotes and a wall clock. (It seems like everything is transitioning to battery packs if it has not done so already.) AA batteries may seem as common as salt to other people but I'll have to go out and buy eneloops and charger before I can use an AA flashlight.
Fundamentally AA powered lights open up the entire market as everyone knows and uses AA cells. The humble AA, though outperformed by li-ion, is easy to find, easy to use, cheap, familiar, versatile and safe. No need to invest in a new charger and battery type with AA lights.
Apparently I'm looking from the other side of the mirror because that's exactly what I'll have to do. (See above.)
Though I love the output of 18650 lights, I see them as a niche market with a dedicated user base.
Isn't all of CPF a niche market? That is why I was initially surprised at the popularity of AA power here, but I am learning.
When I travel, I will usually take an 18650 light, but will always have a couple of AA powered lights. Anywhere in the world I will be able to find AAs, in the pound/dollar shops and if necessary salvaged from a remote control.
This is the second big point I shall take from this. My envisioning did not include travel, at least besides travel by automobile. It should have, as I recently learned that people are having trouble sending lithium batteries by air mail because of restrictions. Not being able to take lithium batteries on a trip would be disasterious for a CR123A/18650-only light. I don't know the specifics of the restrictions but I must look into this.
Alternatively think of it like this - Your car runs on petrol/gas, but would be far more powerful if fueled with racing alcohol (90% nitromethane and 10% methanol). I can't understand why you would want to bother using gasoline when you can use racing alcohol.
If it were possible to carry all the fuel needed for every trip a strong case could be made for the racing fuel. I haven't bought flashlight batteries at the store in probably ten years. I can't see myself doing it in the future except perhaps in the case of travel as mentioned above.
I've always assumed it's a safety aspect more than anything, especially if CPF'ers have 'house flashlights' that are available for the family to use, so would prefer to go NiMh.
Li-Ions make some NASTY fumes when they are abused. My NiMHs that I've killed violently (Short circuit, overcharge, reverse charge, overheat) ooze a bit of goo that you don't want in your eyes. Once, I got one to spray its alkaline chemical around, but it only tarnished the inside of a flashlight.
I need someone to describe precisely the scenarios in which 4xAA would be safer than a single protected 18650. I can only think of fire (external, e.g. house fire), mechanical damage, and trickle charging. The last can be simply avoided by using a good charger. Are the first two enough to justify Ni-MH over Li-ion? I have yet to hear about an 18650 flashlight that turned pipe-bomb because someone dropped it down a flight of stairs; is this a realistic concern?
4xAA is easy to get and easy to understand. And AAs give you different shape options. Smaller, thinner, or fatter, without going to oddball lithium cells. And I feel better about AAs in series/parallel than Li-Ions in series/parallel.
How often does this practically result in a superior light? I naievely thought 4xAA would have greater capacity than 1x18650, but since that's not the case there doesn't seem to be much advantage from the shape department. The 18650 is some 18mm longer but otherwise half the size of a 4xAA cluster. As nice as the D40A looks it appears no more and arguably less convenient than many 1x18650 40MM-head flashlights. AA's can be laid out flat with a thickness of about 14.2mm compared to 18.5mm. Can you point to a case where this results in a superior form factor?
I see the AA hosts as an entry point to high end LED torches for most first purchasers. Then one gets power hungry and goes for the LI-Ion and then on to the 186500's. Yep it's pretty much a one way street to 4Sevens XM18 18,000 Lumen two handed daylight maker! Pass the jet fuel please.
That was my original perspective but I'm starting to understand why veteran users might (also) choose AA power.
I can't be bothered with the care and feeding of li-ion cells anymore. Seems like any time I go to use an 18650 light the battery is dead. Doubly-so when the power goes out and I have no way to charge them.
I don't understand this; any of it. Why would 18650 cells be flat? Why wouldn't you use a 12V charger or primary cells (CR123A) when the power is out?
When the snow's blowing and the power's out and I just need to see what the heck I'm doing, I'll take a Costco strip of Duracell's and a Peak El Cap over everything else in my stable.
Given the especially poor performance of alkaline batteries in cold weather I think I'd reach for just about anything else. Seriously, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but this doesn't make sense to me. You have owned a lot more lights than I have so I stand to learn something. Why would you choose this?
Well...if SHTF do you think you could round up some 18650 cells or AA's from the local drug store? Availability is important.
What would you do in a Katrina like situation with your dead odd celled light?
I find it hard to believe that anyone planning for a "Katrina" would plan on running to the store to scrap for batteries, or raiding remote controls and toys for that matter.
If you are planning ahead lay in a supply! 
with some knowledge, one can harness electricity from solute rich liquids; and 'solute rich' liquids should be plentiful as long as you're alive
Pardon me if I'm reading this wrong, but did you just describe a urine-cell? :huh:
Lastly, I kinda like the fact that in a real pinch, a AA light can also run common household cells like AAAs and AAAAs (from a 9V) with just a piece of McGyver tinfoil. My D40A will do 266 hrs on a 9V, which was about the only cell available in stores throughout the Hurricane Sandy outage.
If we're getting into tinfoil MacGyvering you could run an 18650 light on 3xAAAA as well, or take the head off and run it on any 3-series source. (Stick it all in a Zip-Loc to keep the rain out!) I plan to avoid such dire measures with a stock of primary cells and a 12V charger.
IMO, the argument that AAs are available everywhere, is a nonsense argument. ...
If I am not at home, I have my car. In my car I have two chargers in the glove box, a cheap 18650 charger, that can also be used as a mobile power source (such as for charging a cell phone, or just to carry a spare battery), and a cheap 2*AA/AAA charger. A car battery can be considered an almost endless supply of energy for lighting purposes. I estimate that 10% car battery capacity will charge 20* 18650's, or 70* eneloops. At that point, there will be NO AA batteries available for sale.
If I am in some unseen scenario where I can walk into a gas station and BUY AA batteries, I'd have to assume that the station still has electricity ...
I see I'm not alone in failing to accept the advantage of AA "availability" in an emergency. I don't want to be part of the unprepared stampede clearing the shelves. (I thought people here generally shook their heads at those rushing out to buy a flashlight before a hurricane; why would needing to rush out to buy batteries before one be any smarter?) If I am not allowed to take a box of CR123A cells on an airplane then AA's clearly would be an advantage, but I'd still either bring my own supply or buy one after landing,
before an emergency.
I would feel pretty vulnerable if all I had was 18650 flashlights.
Even in the car, a high quality, single AA light gives me the options of buying additional batteries as used, or taking one out of a toy or my Walkman type radio, or asking another motorist for one, or using an adapter and the AAA out of my keychain light, or even robbing the solar garden lights.
I also keep a test voltage meter in my car that runs off of a single AA.
That option of being able to use the batteries from your, or anyone's garden solar lighting, (and to recharge them during the day) is pretty cool.
I specifically said multiple-AA lights because I already agreed that single AA lights have nice qualities.
If you are raiding your own toys etc. for batteries that seems like a failure to plan. In other scenarios car batteries seem like a far better source of power. I must say however I've never considered garden lights.
What kind of cell do these usually contain?
Granted, I am a complete beginner in buying reasonable quality torches, but the attraction for me in a multi AA unit was inter-operability with other items.
My torch takes NiMh AA, my walking GPS takes NiMh AA, the battery lanterns in my tent take NiMh AA my camera takes NiMh AA ... For me the convenience of knowing that I only have to worry about a single battery type is key.
As acknowledged a common battery for all devices is a powerful incentive. I am apparently the oddball not owning AA devices. (Don't most cameras have Lithium Polymer packs now?)
No one is arguing whether a single or dual cell AA light has value. If you read my post, I stated that I carry in my car a 18650 charger, AND a AA/AAA charger. I also carry AA and AAA lights.
The OP was referring to AA lights with multiple cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, or 8 cells. He was questioning... why buy them, instead of one or two celled 18650 lights?
Thank you for comprehending the subtlety of my question.
Umm, did you not just recently order a
D40Avn, a 4AA light?
Yes siree! :devil: (vn54 has a singular way of separating people from their money and leaving them happy.) I wanted CPF to tell me why I had made the right choice. :naughty:
Poppy, I also see a discussion on AA batteries versus 18650s , not just 4+ battery flashlights.
That is inevitable as I did ask for strengths of LSD-NiMH cells but I wanted to focus on high-power multi-AA lights.
(AA and AAA lithiums are rated for colder temps than 123As)
That is news to me. I thought the only types that topped CR123As were some Saft military cells.
3. Compatibility with other devices- On a backpacking trip, I can run a flashlight, a headlight, a 4AA Steripen, a digital camera, a couple walkie talkies, and my Sierra Zip Stove all on AAs. Having to carry a light that only takes 18650s means carrying more weight and not being able to salvage batteries from other devices in an emergency.
Thank you for yet another voice confirming the primary AA advantage in my mind. My camera takes a Li-Poly pack. A flashlight and headlight can be CR123A or 18650. I have image-stabilized binoculars that take a CR123A as well. However I don't have a Steripen or 2-way radios. Things to think about...
4. Lower cost, lighter weight, and greater availability of solar charging options- With AAs, I can bring a 4 oz. Powerfilm solar charger backpacking to use for all my devices. For 18650s, I have to get one of the few special lights with a mini-USB charging option and take a larger solar charger that charges USB devices. Many of these lights have a proprietary battery that can't be changed out with a fresh one. For survival in the woods, emergencies, and power outages, the ability to charge the battery by alternative means is essential.
More interesting things to consider. Assuming for a moment it were possible to get all 18650-powered devices, is there some reason these cells cannot be (easily) charged with solar power? Do the devices simply not exist? (Yet?)
