ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

bullinchinashop · Jun 16, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

chevrofreak said:
I wouldnt be so quick to blame the batteries for this. I've now seen atleast 3 blown Pelican M6's.

I've owned 3 M6's over the years, and I'm curious as to whether or not the ultra stiff spring on the lamp module of the M6 is damaging the batteries in some way, causing a catastrophic failure. Perhaps it's the crappy switch somehow causing it. Perhaps it's a combination of those things.

I was terribly disappointed by my M6's for build quality and design and vowed never to buy another. Now I have one more reason to add to my list.

HEY I just remembered I had a M6 incan stolen out of my van when it was getting repaired a few couple of years ago. I know it's evil but it'd be funny if that thing exploded like that when it was sitting on his dresser of something.
(Not that I want the guy to be hurt or anything I just want a big bang to scare the #!@$ out of him)

OutdoorIdiot · Jun 16, 2006

Presidio said:
I had the same thing happen to my pm6 (minus the blood) but with new surefire batteries, and after repeated unanswered emails to pelican I said the hell with them and I'll never purchase anything made by pelican again.

Do you have the time to describe in more detail? Or was it essentially the same as LM? I would summarise LM's experience as:

(1) Unsure of the state of batteries (presumed to be matching, but not tested)
(2) Placed in an OLD STYLE PM6 (focussing head, no lamp assembly)
(3) Not held in the hand - i.e. left on a surface while running

How similar was your experience?

Thanks in advance.

PS: Thanks for info on LM, Kevin. I guess he hasn't posted here for a while because he's gone off the whole flashlight thing! Temporarily, of course.

NoFair · Jun 16, 2006

bullinchinashop said:
O H M Y G O D....
I've got about 15 of the Battery Station 123's sitting in a drawer right now. The reason this freaks me out is this : About a month ago I had these batteries in a sealed plastic container. I opened the container to take out a couple and there was a V E R Y strong metallic/acidic smell coming from the batteries! I left the top of after that and the smell is still there but much fainter. I'm VERY tempted to throw these batteries in the garbage after reading that. What if both of those batteries had exploded at once while that light was still in his hand ?!

This is normal with all lithiums and the smell has been describe jokingly on these forums as flashohol or something similar....

Archangel · Jun 16, 2006

The included card says the LEDs won't "run" if there's less than 1%, so if they run but don't light up the 10% (on the MBT-1), then the reading is somewhere between 1 and 10%.

brightnorm said:
As best I remember it didn't run the LEDS, but even if it did it ended up with all LEDs dark.

bwaites · Jun 16, 2006

You new guys to the thread need to read the whole thing.

Pelican has responded to this incident, (don't know why they didn't to the one above) and they have a good reputation for backing their products, so please give them some slack while this is worked out.

Bill

benh · Jun 16, 2006

Holy poop. I just realized that this is probably my old M6. I sold it to StoneDog last year sometime. It was the old style with focusing head and all.

Damn. I'm sorry this happened to you, LM, and I'm glad you're recovering.

benh · Jun 16, 2006

Rereading the thread, I'm certain this is my old M6. I feel somehow responsible for what has happened, as it was originally my light! :ohgeez:

I definitely wouldn't have sold it if I knew this could happen.

LunarModule and StoneDog, please PM me and let me know if there's anything I can do to assist or to make things right.

Here's what I can tell you about the history of the light:

I bought it NIB and put one, maybe two full sets of batteries through it. It spent the majority of its time with me in a drawer, was completely stock, with no modifications made by me.

Stock original lamp assembly, nothing weird happened to the light when I had it. It was my first high performance incan and didn't get used as much as a G2 I ended up buying later, because I didn't want to scratch it up.

OutdoorIdiot · Jun 16, 2006

There have been quite a few posts that have expressed concern, to put it mildly, about BatteryStation batteries.

If one reads through all the posts in this thread (and admittedly this is becoming rather difficult!) then I don't see how it is possible to come to the conclusion that there is an issue with BatteryStation batteries.

Or rather, specifically BatteryStation batteries. There is clearly an issue with CR123 lithium batteries, in that when things do go wrong, it gets very nasty.

I believe we need to focus on what factors can cause these batteries to go wrong.

If we are talking about the odd manufacturing defect, then unfortunately, it is a case of #%!@ happens, and there is very little we can do about it. The odd manufacturing defect will always occur.

However, I believe we are on to something more here. We may not be, but we certainly aren't going to get anywhere unless we assume we are.

Topper's one and only attempt at replicating the problem, succeeded. As it happens, the only variable which we know was different in Toppers experiment, were the brand of batteries. They were not BatteryStation. The important factors that were the same, were the make, model and vintage of the flashlight, and the fact that the flashlight was not held in the hand, thereby allowing things to get hotter than normal. The thing that may or may not have been the same, was the fact that Topper deliberately used mis-matched cells. Enough is known about mis-matched cells to suspect that was a factor in LunarModules case, but we can't be sure.

I also believe that the chances of Topper stumbling upon a rare, faulty battery, for his experiment, are very slim indeed. That is what makes me think we could be on to something more than a random defect.

The areas of interest, for me, are:

(1) The OLD STYLE PM6 (possible factors: spring so strong that it crushes batteries; excessive heating of one or more batteries... insert theory here...)
(2) Mismatched Batteries
(3) The extra heat build-up caused by not holding a flashlight

I have suggested that Kevin experiments with heating, and he is going to be performing what sounds like a fairly comprehensive set of tests on Saturday. Hopefully after Saturday, we will all have a good feeling for whether the factor of heat is irrelevent, relevent, or important. Whatever the outcome, it will give us valuable data which will help guide further ideas.

But we need to focus on ideas, rather than jumping to poorly-founded conclusions about brands.

Even in the case of the old-style PM6, I wouldn't point the finger at it (we know plenty of other brands and models that have exploded). I would, however, suggest that it is wise to use it as a case study, certainly after Topper's experiment.

flashlight · Jun 16, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

AW said:
LM : Wish you well. Sorry to hear these kind of rare accident happening to one of us here.

mdocod : Comparing voltage is not a foolproof way to match cells as shown from your test. Even batteries from the same batch will have different internal resistance due to production tolerance or various reasons. With different internal resistances, they will perform differently even when under the same discharge conditions. I match my cells by comparing voltage and internal resistance. They'll have to be within a certain range before I 'll use them in pairs/series. Cells match this way will behave with more consistency and more predictable.

AW, that looks like a useful tool to have. What kind of range for matching internal resistance is acceptable?

Presidio · Jun 17, 2006

OutdoorIdiot said:
Do you have the time to describe in more detail? Or was it essentially the same as LM? I would summarise LM's experience as:

(1) Unsure of the state of batteries (presumed to be matching, but not tested)
(2) Placed in an OLD STYLE PM6 (focussing head, no lamp assembly)
(3) Not held in the hand - i.e. left on a surface while running

How similar was your experience?

Thanks in advance.

This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

This all happened about two years ago.

Geologist · Jun 17, 2006

Presidio said:
This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

This all happened about two years ago.

Looks like that is 3 X M6 2 of them with SF batts...

NewBie · Jun 17, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

SilverFox said:
Hello Lunarmodule,

The most likely cause is that one battery was drained more than the other one. As things warm up, the fuller charged cell tries to reverse charge the under charged cell and things heat up fast. Hydrogen gas is vented and when ignited, blows up. Once one cell is burning, it doesn't take much to ignite the other cell.

Tom

Tom-

LunarModule said his light was actually operating when this happened, it was on when it went boom.

If it had been a reverse charge scenario, the light would have been rather dim, as the bulb in the PM6 would have been down to a dull red/orange glow.

So it seems rather safe to assume it was NOT a reverse charge scenario.

To all the flashlight makers, that have not heard some of my recommendations before, imho, it would be wise to start incorporating safety vents in their flashlights. Especially sealed flashlights. One guy nearly lost his eye due to a SureFire 9P.

It would be interesting to look in these cells and see if the cell's safety vent actually punctured at the typical 40 psi.

From what I see here, it appears the venting happened so rapidly, that at least one of them just vented right round the whole button top assembly. (I don't see charred exit paths comming out the vent holes.

Even so, a cell's vent could still burst (to produce a controlled release), but the pressure would build up in a sealed flashlight anyhow...until the flashlight physically explodes, unless the flashlight incorporated safety vents.

LunarModule, I hope things are well on their way to being fully healed now, and you are doing good.

Lithium cell chemistries are something that should be respected by all.

Definitely not something to dork around with...

One of the several other threads, where folks have had their Lithium cell flashlights explode:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

SureFire has also had Lithium cells explode in their flashlights, this one was a 9P, and the guy nearly lost his eye (and it is most definitely not the only one):
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=132932

There have been plenty of other lithium cell based lights that have exploded...

Also, a thought to consider, since the light was shipped with cells, was the light shipped with the cells installed in the light? A stiff spring, plus vibration in transit, might cause a decent amount of case deformation that could possibly contribute to an internal failure mode.

For cell anatomy, for those not familiar, please see this thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1389277

Lunal_Tic · Jun 17, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Can someone please give a definitive answer to this question. Do lithium CR123s vent hydrogen gas?

I have seen both yes and no answers so which is it? I was under the impression that CR123s don't have any hydrogen in them and that it was Alkalines that usually out gas hydrogen but with so many contradictory statements . . .

TIA,
-LT

Geologist · Jun 17, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

I forgot that RY3's experience was also with a M6. Maybe this older model is less tolerant of mismatched cells than other lights?

4 M6s, 1 BS batteries, 2 SF batteries, and I *think* RY3's experience was with mismatched cells, one was SF the other DP? that was awhile ago...

Icebreak · Jun 17, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

NewBie said:
Tom-
If it had been a reverse charge scenario, the light would have been rather dim, as the bulb in the PM6 would have been down to a dull red/orange glow.

Hello, Jar.

I don't know enough about all the dynamics involved in that scenario i.e. what 's happening with the V and A levels to the cell that is reverse charging the other so I can't speak directly to the concept. I did confirm that a single cell can drive the PM6 lamp well enough that is doesn't go orange. To the eye it's still similar in color to a properly driven lamp just half the output or density of the beam.

- Jeff

NewBie · Jun 17, 2006

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Icebreak said:
Hello, Jar.

I don't know enough about all the dynamics involved in that scenario i.e. what 's happening with the V and A levels to the cell that is reverse charging the other so I can't speak directly to the concept. I did confirm that a single cell can drive the PM6 lamp well enough that is doesn't go orange. To the eye it's still similar in color to a properly driven lamp just half the output or density of the beam.

- Jeff

With my light meter, I get +2,000 lux at a given distance and two good cells, and with just one cell I get 186 lux.

But there is more to what I said, than I said. Just to check, I took a cell that reads 2.608V that I have, and put it in with a fresh cell. I get NO light out of my PM6. And it isn't reverse charged. Even after leaving it in the PM6 for a bit, and then measuring it, it still has 2.564V on it. Before the cell can be reverse charged, it's internal resistance goes way up, greatly reducing the current flow, to the point of no light output. It may be possible to create an alternate scenario through a set of conditions, but this is what I just checked.

I just tested three more used cells with voltages from 2.6V to 2.8V (flash amp tested between 30mA to 100mA- so yes, drained) and none of them will even light the lamp in the PM6, even with a fresh cell present.

Given enough time, maybe you could reverse charge these cells, if you also left the light on, while it had no light out the front of the flashlight.

P.S. My PM6 is an older one with the adjustable focus beam.

Icebreak · Jun 17, 2006

Completely different behavior than 1 real cell + 1 dummy cell. I see. Thanks.

NewBie · Jun 17, 2006

Lunarmodule said:
I'm still reeling with shock as I type this, bandages in place. They say there's a first time for everything, and my first lithium battery explosion happened moments ago to a flashlight in my hand while operating.

From this thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114455&page=2&pp=40

NewBie said:
IMHO, there are quite a few rather ignorant folks who like to pretend to be experts. If you really don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't say something is safe when it truely is not. I'm not an expert either, but I do have the skills to read...

Duracell 123A nasties:
Thermal degradation may produce hazardous fumes
of manganese and lithium;
hydrofluoric acid;
oxides of carbon and sulfur
and other toxic by-products.

Notes to Physician
1) Potential leakage of dimethoxyethane, propylene carbonate and lithium trifluoromethane sulfonate.
http://www.duracell.com/oem/safety/pdf/2003_9.pdf

(Hydrofluoric Acid is definitely not something one should even think about messing around with.)

(Alot of these byproducts are just as nasty as what comes out of a Li-Ion rechargable cell.)

Energizer's take on things:
Under normal conditions of use, the battery is hermetically sealed.

Ingestion: Swallowing a battery can be harmful.
Contents of an open battery can cause serious chemical burns of mouth, esophagus, and gastrointestinal tract.
If battery or open battery is ingested, do not induce vomiting or give food or drink. Seek medical attention immediately.
CALL NATIONAL BATTERY INGESTION HOTLINE for advice and follow-up (202-625-3333) collect, day or night.

Inhalation: Contents of an open battery can cause respiratory irritation. Provide fresh air and seek medical attention.

Skin Absorption: Dimethoxyethane, dioxolane, and lithium trifluoromethanesulfonate may be absorbed through the skin, causing
localized inflammation.

Skin Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause skin irritation and/or chemical burns. Remove contaminated clothing and
wash skin with soap and water. If a chemical burn occurs or if irritation persists, seek medical attention.

Eye Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause severe irritation and chemical burns. Immediately flush eyes thoroughly with
water for at least 15 minutes, lifting upper and lower lids, until no evidence of the chemical remains. Seek medical attention.

Note: Carbon black is listed as a possible carcinogen by International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf

Please don't pretend to be an expert when you are not, and pass supposedly "informed" opinions.

(P.S.- I'm not an expert on batteries either, but I can read...)

Lunarmodule said:
Good guess. In the exploding Pelican M6 thread, the prime suspect for the detonating cell(s) were indeed Surefire 123s, with the distinctive red wrapper. Another CPF thread reported rupturing primary Cr123s in a Surefire M6 while stored in a vehicle in extreme cold. Brand? Surefire. In each thread were several mentions of other Surefire batteries involved in little disasters. Kind puts a new twist on the company's play on words name. Surefire: you can be sure of one thing, this babys gonna FIRE* (*=we didnt say one kind or another)

Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds? Simple: folks would scare themselves into NOT driving? Why risk it? Life's too precious. It certainly is. To waste time cowering in fear over flashlight batteries, it is indeed. Now, for the schmoe with his 15 Amp Magmod 3D with magnets between his CPB1650 cells, be afraid, be very afraid. Your express ticket to Short CIrcuit CIty is waiting for you, sir. But especially single cell applications, 123s of ANY manufacture. I worry much more about being spontaneously mawled by escaped Persian Tigers from the local zoo.

I distinctly remember someone wisecracking about my portable hand grenade, referring to my home grown rechargeable LiIon battery pack I made for my Surefire M6. I used unprotected cells in a pack configuration, and it was likened by one to be akin to said grenade. Be sure to update your progress if you still have both hands in a few weeks..... I shake my head and remember that one.

NewBie said:
You know, it is *quite* ignorant for folks to be discounting the dangers of Lithium cells...in the extreme.

We see examples quite often, of them causing things to project, that could easily put out a child's eye, or get hot and disfigure/leave scares. That Lithium 123 cell M6 flashlight tailcap launched so hard, that it nearly went through a solid oak cabinet door!

The thread is found here, make sure to follow the thread to the end, you will see additional pictures later in the thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

Here is another example of these Primary Lithium 123 cells (Battery Station) misbehaving, luckily this one didn't fail so badly:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91245

And it is not always when you abuse the cells, occassionally they just blow up.

We are constantly getting new members, and it is important for them to understand the dangers and risks.

It is really stupid to the extreme, to think there are no dangers. We have seen multiple examples of 123 cells causing dangerous failures right here on cpf, and we are a very small cross-section of only ~20,000 users.

Once one is aware of the dangers of Lithium batteries, and how to treat them properly, not to mix brands, or *NOT* putting in a fresh 123 for one of the two that was dead- to save money, *NOT* running them down until the filament doesn't glow at all, *NOT* letting them bake in the sun in a flat black finish flashlight on a dashboard, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* using cells that have a dent, and many other situations, then a person can make a *WISE* informed choice, and also be aware of the dangers and how to treat Lithium cells accordingly.

I am very surprised that the majority flashlight manufacturers have not added circuitry to shut down a 123 cell flashlight when the cells drop below a given voltage. This would help eliminate one of the possible failure modes that can lead to venting, venting with flame, expulsion of internals, projectile launching of internals, or explosion. A safety venting mechanism in sealed flashlights might also be very useful in these situations, allowing a Lithium 123 cell flashlight to contain some of the failure modes, resulting in less danger/risk to the end user.

To give you just one example of the many safety bulletin/recalls dealing with 123 cells:

Name of product: Fuji Power and A&T Fuji Power

CR123A 3-volt lithium batteries originally provided with Galls® H.A.L.O. Tactical Flashlight.
Hazard: The batteries originally provided with the flashlight may overheat or explode presenting a potential for fire or personal injury.

Incidents/Injuries: Five reports of batteries overheating or exploding have been received, causing minor injuries such as burns and minor
property damage from fire.
http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0309d&L=safety&D=1&P=9889

And there are *PLENTY* of these type of safety/recall notices out there.

Just knowing that 123 Primary Lithium cells are in fact a risk, and understanding how to treat them properly to minimize that risk is very important.

Remember folks, lithium cells really can be truely dangerous, and they really need to be treated with respect.

This guy nearly lost his eye from his SureFire 9P exploding:
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=132932

MikeF · Jun 17, 2006

Thanks NewBie

:wave: :twothumbs

amanichen · Jun 17, 2006

Lunarmodule said:
Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds?

This comparison is flawed because in a modern world, you can't (practically) get around in many places without some sort of motorized transportation. The difference is that one can operate a flashlight, and many other electronic devices, with batteries that are less dangerous to use than lithium ions.

With all the non-battery saavy people in the world, would you give your wife and kids alkalines, or li-ions to use in their devices? When even experienced, battery conscious users can become injured by li-ions, would you trust people who's collective idea of properly maintaining and handling batteries involves keeping loose spares in a drawer, and nonchalantly tossing flat-drained cells into the garbage?

ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

Enlightened

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Flashlight Enthusiast

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Enlightened

*Retired*

Flashlight Enthusiast

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

*Retired*

Flashlight Enthusiast

*Retired*

Enlightened

Enlightened

Similar threads

Retired

Retired

Retired