ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

HarryN · Jun 29, 2006

Hans said:
That's a very good question. I'd like to add another one: How about running *unprotected* li-ion rechargeables in a light like the HDS that protects them from over discharge?

Hans

Hi Hans, I think Kevin is not attempting to generically qualify every kind of cell in every kind of flashlight. His work is a very focused effort on attempting to understand a failure and the mechanisms behind it, and how to prevent / reduce the risk to others.

Kevin, thanks for your efforts. I think if people look at your web site, they will understand why, which I certainly do now. As a parent, I can only applaud you.

NewBie · Jul 1, 2006

Today I received a set of Battery Station cells from Kevin, and I will begin running a variety of tests to see if anything happens.

Thank you very much Kevin!

batterystation · Jul 1, 2006

Our testing has focused on primaries. The RCR-123A we sell is both low voltage protected to protect the battery but also short circuit protected to protect the customer. I have yet to see an issue with the RCR-123A that would warrant any concern. They seem to be overly safe as we say.

I am doing a few more tests today and tomorrow but they are still revolving around the Pelican M6 and our batteries. On a dead short, the battery seems to top out at 7 amps and begins dropping as it heats up. I used my Fluke 77 to dead short it. It takes a few seconds to really get cooking and finally settles at about .5 amps as it cools.

I noticed the new Pelican 2310 LED light sucks these things down all the way like my Surefire L1 does. I believe the market shift over to LEDs from incans will just help all the more on the safety issues. They draw less current, run cooler, more single cell options, etc. I think the new CREE LEDs will change this market even more now.

I sure wish I had an answer to all of this. Anyway I will continue comparing notes with Pelican and attempting to duplicate this in some way. I am implimenting the turn on/off multiple times into this next few tests also.

Argetni · Jul 1, 2006

Well this has convinced me, when I get home from work tonight I am going to remove the 123s from all of my flashlights and dispose of them.

Off the top of my head I have in my closet fully loaded with dangerous 123s

SF 9p (3)
SF 6p (2)
SF L4 (2)
SF E1E/KL1 (1)
Nuwai 5w (2)
Mag KPR112 (3)
Brinkman maxfire (2)
Shaper Image 1w (1)
McLux PR-T Icarus mod in a FB2 -LifeNRA auction win- (2)

18 cells waiting to blow!!!

I have 20 new battery station 123s that I will keep for when I want to use the lights. The question is where to keep them now?

I am not going to risk my familys safety for my hobby.

And they say guns are dangerous!

Alkalines from now on for me.

PlayboyJoeShmoe · Jul 1, 2006

I still believe that with reasonable precautions that I have nothing to worry about.

To me this means not too much pressure by springs, and checking flash amps.

If I'm proven wrong, you'll read about it!

OldGreyGuy · Jul 2, 2006

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
To me this means not too much pressure by springs, and checking flash amps.

I'm a software guy, so excuse me for asking a dumb question. What exactly are flash amps and how does one test them?

What equipment do you need?

I have a Autoranging DMM which I use to check voltage, can I use this somehow?

milkyspit · Jul 2, 2006

OldGreyGuy said:
I'm a software guy, so excuse me for asking a dumb question. What exactly are flash amps and how does one test them?

What equipment do you need?

I have a Autoranging DMM which I use to check voltage, can I use this somehow?

Hey Grey! :wave:

A LOOONNNNGGG time ago I'd posted a comparison of two battery brands... the thread also describes how to test for flash amps, which at the time I'd also mistakenly referred to as "MUC." Take a look over here.

Argetni · Jul 2, 2006

Well I did it, 19 123s (found a stragler) have been wrapped seperatly and put in the trash.

I know have a bunch of empty lights sitting on my "light" shelf

When I decided I need to use one I will install fresh 123s, play, and then remove them and put them into the "used but still ok" bin.

I will sleep better tonight I think.

FYI, I have a pretty bad case of OCD and these threads have just made it flare up real bad

Lightmeup · Jul 2, 2006

Argetni said:
Well I did it, 19 123s have been wrapped seperatly and put in the trash.

I hope that trash doesn't get burned.

OldGreyGuy · Jul 2, 2006

milkyspit said:
Take a look over here.

Thanks, helped a lot.

NewBie · Jul 2, 2006

Kevin,

I decided to repeat some of the tests I ran before, with other brands of cells, and I'm glad to say, so far, nothing unexpected happened.

I will be repeating the same tests again today.

You might have noticed my order for additional cells for testing, keep the money, you deserve it.

Once I get done with this, I'll be doing some new, additional tests, such as creating a manufacturing defect, as might be found on an occasional cell. If something happens here, I'll be doing the same thing to other brands, to see what happens.

Lit Up · Jul 2, 2006

Funny how a few years perspective changes.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=133

Fav quote from it:

I hate alkaline batteries. Sure it's my fault for forgetting to change them, but my lithiums have never done this.....

Be very thankful for that....

NewBie · Jul 3, 2006

Okay, I've been running tests for weeks now, on boxes of 123 cells from various makers of them.

Friday, I received a set of brand new cells from Battery Station, and they were dated 02/06 on the bottom.

I've been running tests all weekend, while I've been doing yardwork (so not a totally wasted weekend).

Anyhow, I depleted a cell to 60%, and put it in the front, with a new fresh cell in the back. Just like I've done many times before.

I was in the chat room with the cpf crew, cooling off after pulling weeds, and decided to go look at my latest test, really quick.

Whoa, the tail button is buldging on the old style PM6! I noticed the video tape was at the end, so I ran back into the house to get a new one. Whew, it still hasn't gone boom yet. Anyhow, I went and put on my protective gear, as my picture camera wouldn't focus thru the thick polycarbonate.

I'm not gonna fiddle with this sucker until it goes boom, or the swelling goes way down.

Here is what I have at the moment:

Notice the light is now out, just like what happened to Topper. This past month, going thru boxes of various brand cells, I have not seen anything, not even a slight buldge.

I'm gonna let the camera watch things, since I've seen the results of some of the other PM6 explosions, like nearly passing thru the solid oak door.

I did go back and look at the end of the tape, there was no budging while the light was on.

I hope if something happens, the video camera ends up okay, my wife would kill me if I ruined my Christmas present!

.

NewBie · Jul 3, 2006

Okay, well, let things cool down to 65 degrees F, and put on the protective gear.

The tail was still bulging, and was as hard as my ten speed tire at 60 psi.

I very slowly screwed the light apart, the seal cracked, and it hissed for quite some time.

So, what did I see?

The cell vented as it was designed to, so this isn't really considered failure. I'm *very* glad to see the battery protection mechanisms kick in like they are supposed to.

This is the same test I've tried many times on various brand cells over the past month, and this is the first time I've seen a cell vent. One of the interesting things to note, it was the 100% new cell, not the depleted one that vented- not what I expected.

I will be repeating the same test several times tomorrow, if I have time, after work.

cy · Jul 3, 2006

whoaaa.... be care handling the light under pressure!
sure hope you've got a full face mask carbon filter system on... Newbie, thanks again for doing this! talk about putting your self in the line of fire...

quite possibly, fresh new cell vented because that's where the most energy is located. Cell from which current is flowing from will heat first, possibly setting off a chain reaction.

my supply of older Surefire CR123's is suddenly becoming precious. I've been almost exclusively using li-ions for the last two years or so, since getting Li14430 & charging system from Larry/dougS & co.

to me this illustrates how dificult it is to replicate a primary lithium cell failure. And No failures have been reported of a single cell litium light, LED or incand.

photo2000a · Jul 3, 2006

NewBie said:
Okay, I've been running tests for weeks now, on boxes of 123 cells from various makers of them.

Friday, I received a set of brand new cells from Battery Station, and they were dated 02/06 on the bottom.

I've been running tests all weekend, while I've been doing yardwork (so not a totally wasted weekend).

<<i dunno, is that a sheet of glass or plexiglass over the bucket? i'd hate to think what would happen if the light exploded and the sheet turned into shrapnel

not sure a plastic bucket would have properly contained a small 'blast' either

dunno

just be safe

Size15's · Jul 3, 2006

I was under the impression it was 1/2 inch of Lexan in which case theres no cause for concern because anything that can shatter that will leave a respectable crator (afaik)

NewBie · Jul 3, 2006

cy said:
whoaaa.... be care handling the light under pressure!
sure hope you've got a full face mask carbon filter system on... Newbie, thanks again for doing this! talk about putting your self in the line of fire...

quite possibly, fresh new cell vented because that's where the most energy is located. Cell from which current is flowing from will heat first, possibly setting off a chain reaction.

to me this illustrates how dificult it is to replicate a primary lithium cell failure. And No failures have been reported of a single cell litium light, LED or incand.

Actually, I have what is called a half mask respirator that looks like an old gas mask, with dual particulate chemical/gas purifying cartidge filters, and I check the valves and the seal for proper operation before each use. NBC training comes in handy...

It looks like this:
http://www.northsafety.com/TriggerW...ageCode=en&ProductItemID=3788&ReuseToken=True

The filter/cartidge I am using is an approved OV, AG Cartridge & P100 Filter. It is good for Organic Vapor, Chlorine, Hydrogen Chloride, Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Fluoride, Chlorine Dioxide Cartridge. Plus P100 Particulate Filter (99.97% Minimum Filter Efficiency).

I also wear goggles and full face shield, protective clothing, and gloves. I toss out the gloves if I have a vented cell, like I did last night.

Size15, yes, I am using 1/2" polycarbonate sheet over the top of the big white five gallon bucket.

It will be interesting to see if I can duplicate the failure again, as that is an important step.

----

Actually, I am using a Star Respirator from AO Safety (sorry, wrong brand).
This is it here:
http://www.aosafety.com/industrial/... 5 Star Half Mask&ind_prod_num=50089-00000001

Filter is a combo particle/OG&AE threaded version.

Warp · Jul 3, 2006

Thank you Kevin and NewBie for your work.

NewBie · Jul 3, 2006

Warp said:
Thank you Kevin and NewBie for your work.

You are welcome, and thanks for the comment.

In a little bit, I'll be starting the same test over again, to see if the failure mode will repeat or not, or result in something more extreme. I plan on doing as many as I can get in tonight.

ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

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