Gas prices

[jtr1962]

Outside of Manhattan and a few neighborhoods, NOT owning a car is unrealistic.
For most Americans, a car is a genuine NEED.
No, they don't need a luxury SUV that they honestly can't afford.
But they do need a car.

Not owning some form of private transportation is unrealistic. It needn't take the form of a car. I was using my bike the way most people use a car from the time I was a teenager. Most car trips are under 10 miles. A bike can easily handle that once you build up some stamina. Now that we have e-bikes a person in any kind of shape can do 10 or 20 mile bike trips. A fast e-bike is probably as fast as a car for many local trips.

The problem with cars is they cost you money even when you're not using them. They're as expensive as hell. You also need an operator's license, which is another huge downside. The US should provide people alternatives to driving. Travel is a basic human right. You shouldn't have to jump through the hoops of getting an operator's license and spending a small fortune just to get from point A to point B. At the very least employers in places without decent public transit should have to provide transportation to employees who lack a car for free, or worst case for a small fare.

The fact most need to drive is also why our roads are so dangerous. We've watered down licensing standards to the point 99% of those driving are incompetent, many dangerously so.

 

[jtr1962]

Standing in 95F heat or a rainstorm dumping 6"/hr of rain waiting for a bus isn't my idea of fun. I'll take the car (or plane). For that matter, it would take longer to take the bus than a plane flight would be. Google Maps says it'd take 2+ hrs to get to the airport by bus. It's a 25 minute drive, up to 40 minutes with traffic.

I'll readily admit buses suck. They're slow, bumpy, and smelly, plus they're subject to traffic delays. Rail transit is far better. That's what the US needs now. High-speed rail for longer distances to replace planes and long-distance driving. Local rail with adequate bike parking to replace local driving. Rail can't go every place you need to go but it can get you close enough that your destination is a bike ride away. In a city subways are ideal. You're not stuck in the rain waiting for your train to come.

Planes suck also. The stupid TSA delays at airports largely negate the point of flying. For trips under about 500 to 900 miles high-speed rail is faster overall. Just buy your ticket and hop on the train. The stations are in the city centers. No need to waste an hour or more getting to/from an airport.

 

[Chauncey Gardener]

Bahahahahahaha i have an old yellow jeep!
Really helped with the wintery roads this past winter. I drove some 924 Porches as a dealer trade driver in California from San Jose to Monterey and it was amazing as a high school senior. I think i sat in a Carrera and it would be a dream to own one.

Just when I was so happy for you .... you post this. I'm still happy for you, just not as much.

 

[jtr1962]

We have certainly painted ourselves into a corner with the need for independence in transportation.

It's worse than that. Suburbia and sprawl was the single biggest mistake in the history of man. We're paying for it now with heavy oil dependency. That's just for starters. There's also the time people waste traveling the infernal distances. I can walk to my local grocery in the same time it takes people to walk from their car in the parking lot to the big box store. If I'm buying a lot a shopping cart can hold two weeks worth of groceries.

The countries that emphasized urban areas, transit, walking, and biking are going to have a huge economic advantage in the future. Think mostly Asia. A large amount of oil/gas infrastructure has already been destroyed. It'll take years to rebuild, if we even can rebuild it. Given the volatility of that region shareholders might not even be willing to fund it. It's looking more and more like fossil fuels will get ever more expensive in the long run. It's time we moved off them, and off auto dependency. It's not just the oil to run the cars. Even if we go 100% EV roads are made of asphalt. Guess where that comes from? In suburbia each mile of road uses the same amount of materials but serves far fewer people. We may not even have the resources to maintain most of our suburban roads in the near future.

 

[jtr1962]

I drove some 924 Porches as a dealer trade driver in California from San Jose to Monterey and it was amazing as a high school senior. I think i sat in a Carrera and it would be a dream to own one.

At one time in my early 20s I thought the same. I was an avid reader of Car & Driver. Then I realized if I drove those vehicles the way they were meant to be driven I would be spending a lot of time in jail, plus a lot on fines. And that brings me to another reason I'm annoyed we had to dumb down licensing standards in the US because most need to drive. If that wasn't the case the relatively few who could pass the driver's test would be competent enough to drive on highways without speed limits. The US naturally lends itself to such highways with its huge size. I may have considered driving if not enough people drove to create traffic jams, and if I could do something like drive from NYC to Montreal in maybe 3 hours. That's as fast as high-speed rail. Driving as it exists in the US though just stinks. Traffic jams, mostly low speed limits, incompetent drivers, etc.

As an aside I did do some trips with my brother to my grandmother's place in Rome, NY in the 1980s, as a passenger of course (never had a license). We usually made the trip in the early AM hours. Lots of fun with empty roads going mostly well above legal speed limits, often at triple-digit speeds. My brother had a radar detector. He never got a ticket for highway speeding. He got a few in NYC but not for the last 30 years.

 

[Candleometry]

It's worse than that. Suburbia and sprawl was the single biggest mistake in the history of man. We're paying for it now with heavy oil dependency. That's just for starters. There's also the time people waste traveling the infernal distances. I can walk to my local grocery in the same time it takes people to walk from their car in the parking lot to the big box store. If I'm buying a lot a shopping cart can hold two weeks worth of groceries.

The countries that emphasized urban areas, transit, walking, and biking are going to have a huge economic advantage in the future. Think mostly Asia. A large amount of oil/gas infrastructure has already been destroyed. It'll take years to rebuild, if we even can rebuild it. Given the volatility of that region shareholders might not even be willing to fund it. It's looking more and more like fossil fuels will get ever more expensive in the long run. It's time we moved off them, and off auto dependency. It's not just the oil to run the cars. Even if we go 100% EV roads are made of asphalt. Guess where that comes from? In suburbia each mile of road uses the same amount of materials but serves far fewer people. We may not even have the resources to maintain most of our suburban roads in the near future.

Some do not like that lifestyle though. It can feel cramped and uncomfortable. We each must choose what is most important to use for our physical and mental health as well as our wallets.

 

[Chauncey Gardener]

Me, I'm just glad I'm not @jtr1962's dead horse.

 

[dc38]

Me, I'm just glad I'm not @jtr1962's dead horse.

Swedish Meatballs

 

[jtr1962]

Some do not like that lifestyle though. It can feel cramped and uncomfortable. We each must choose what is most important to use for our physical and mental health as well as our wallets.

It's not a question of like or not like. It's a simple fact that sprawl and suburbia are simply unsustainable. I'm not the first person who said this, nor will I be the last. The first suburbs built after WWII are starting to reach the end of their useful infrastructure life. We don't even have the money to maintain them, let alone to rebuild this infrastructure. We're destined to abandon many suburbs, especially exurbs, within a generation.

Also you can have reasonably high population densities without living in tiny apartments. Where I am is a mix of 1, 2, and 3 family homes on lots ranging from 20'x100' to 40'x100'. I think the population density is around 20K per square mile but it hardly feels cramped.

The main thing though is ending car dependency. We can do this without resorting to very high population densities by simply putting places people need within walking distance or easy biking distance of each other. You can do this in urban, suburban, and even rural areas. There's no reason to have schools and offices and shopping areas and residential areas all separated from each other by miles of nothing. You can put all these areas close to each other.

 

[bluflaam777]

Swedish Meatballs

Hey, they don't make themselves.

 

[dc38]

It's not a question of like or not like. It's a simple fact that sprawl and suburbia are simply unsustainable. I'm not the first person who said this, nor will I be the last. The first suburbs built after WWII are starting to reach the end of their useful infrastructure life. We don't even have the money to maintain them, let alone to rebuild this infrastructure. We're destined to abandon many suburbs, especially exurbs, within a generation.

Also you can have reasonably high population densities without living in tiny apartments. Where I am is a mix of 1, 2, and 3 family homes on lots ranging from 20'x100' to 40'x100'. I think the population density is around 20K per square mile but it hardly feels cramped.

The main thing though is ending car dependency. We can do this without resorting to very high population densities by simply putting places people need within walking distance or easy biking distance of each other. You can do this in urban, suburban, and even rural areas. There's no reason to have schools and offices and shopping areas and residential areas all separated from each other by miles of nothing. You can put all these areas close to each other.

China does this, and it seems to spur population density...people get acclimated to being around noises and clamor and people that it kind of becomes an intrinsic part of them...then when they decide "I want some peace and quiet", they move to the suburbs and turn those areas into noisy, clamorous, densely populated areas then complain about how noisy and overpopulated it is.

It's one of many reasons why some people have opted for a more nomadic or mobile lifestyle, campers, RV, long term backpacking, etc...it reconditions the person.

 

[jtr1962]

China does this, and it seems to spur population density...people get acclimated to being around noises and clamor and people that it kind of becomes an intrinsic part of them...then when they decide "I want some peace and quiet", they move to the suburbs and turn those areas into noisy, clamorous, densely populated areas then complain about how noisy and overpopulated it is.

But lots of people love that kind of lifestyle. I know I do. I love city life. I feel so alive when I walk through Manhattan.

Sometimes people do tire of it but living in "quiet", isolated areas have been proven to negatively affect health. We're social animals and develop all sorts of mental pathologies when we're isolated from each other.

It's one of many reasons why some people have opted for a more nomadic or mobile lifestyle, campers, RV, long term backpacking, etc...it reconditions the person.

It may be necessary to do that sort of stuff periodically to "reset" yourself. I'm even considering this if I have the time, money, and someone to travel with. I think a bike ride across the US with the right person (female of course) would be awesome.

 

[dc38]

But lots of people love that kind of lifestyle. I know I do. I love city life. I feel so alive when I walk through Manhattan.

Sometimes people do tire of it but living in "quiet", isolated areas have been proven to negatively affect health. We're social animals and develop all sorts of mental pathologies when we're isolated from each other.

It may be necessary to do that sort of stuff periodically to "reset" yourself. I'm even considering this if I have the time, money, and someone to travel with. I think a bike ride across the US with the right person (female of course) would be awesome.

no no, you picked your environment, you stay there please LOL

 

[jtr1962]

no no, you picked your environment, you stay there please LOL

Well, lots of tourists from suburban and rural areas come to NYC each year. We welcome them with open arms, and enjoy giving them a different perspective from what they're used to. Riding the subways is a trip for many of these tourists.

 

[orbital]

Sometimes people do tire of it but living in "quiet", isolated areas have been proven to negatively affect health. We're social animals and develop all sorts of mental pathologies when we're isolated from each other.

+

Wrong answer ^^^^

I'd pay good money to watch some city person become completely unglued living in the country.
Personally wouldn't have it any other way, yes I live in the country

 

[dc38]

+

Wrong answer ^^^^

I'd pay good money to watch some city person become completely unglued living in the country.
Personally wouldn't have it any other way, yes I live in the country

like a toilet paper in the toilet :D

I'm from the burbs, but absolutely welcome the tinnitus when I stay in the countryside. It lets me know I'm alive

 

[jtr1962]

+

Wrong answer ^^^^

I'd pay good money to watch some city person become completely unglued living in the country.
Personally wouldn't have it any other way

That's why I would never live in the country. I don't understand the city people who move there looking for a change only to realize they can never adapt to this. I have a simple rule deciding where I would live. If it doesn't have an extensive rail system, both local and long distance, especially subways, I'm not interested. Also every business I need to use regularly has to be within easy walking distance, say 2 miles or less. This generally limits me to cities of several million or more. There's only really one of those in the US. There are dozens in Asia.

 

[dc38]

Well, lots of tourists from suburban and rural areas come to NYC each year. We welcome them with open arms, and enjoy giving them a different perspective from what they're used to. Riding the subways is a trip for many of these tourists.

I hate the city, and would live there only if you gave me a nice big penthouse, away from all the noise, and my own private elevator. And unlimited food through its own personal elevator.

**it comes to mind that people always consider what they don't have or can't get to be a luxury...that penthouse experience situation would just be like every ither day for me, nice and quiet, big open quiet areas to walk in...I'm good where I'm at, you can keep the pent house lol

 

[bluflaam777]

I think the population density is around 20K per square mile but it hardly feels cramped.

duphuk you mean it hardly feels cramped? LOL
I think the average population density in a US city is around 4k /sqm ? (I could be off I didn't check) I know that my city is around 4500 /sqm.
20k is nuts IMO

The main thing though is ending car dependency

No. Personal 'motorized' go fast or go slow vehicles (doesn't have to be a car) are never going away. We've always had personal transportation along with mass transit once that got sorted.
Build a city from the bottom up, from scratch to hold your 20k density. No cars allowed. Build straight down, straight up. Build it in an imaginary bubble with all of the latest green tech. Make modular for easy of maintenance and any upgrading.
Have ALL of it designed by engineers that are/would actually live in said city to avoid any unrealistic 'dreamers' creating a thing that can't actually be lived in.
(what was that bio-dome thing in Arizona that failed?) Lot's of stuff got learned and some things fixed. But it wasn't actually self-sustainable.

You're gonna have to make concessions. There will be compromises needed. Not everyone wants, or even can live in a 20k-per density city. So they live just outside of it and commute. Mass transit is fine there also, but the cars/trucks/motor bikes remain.

isolated areas have been proven to negatively affect health.

We aren't talking long term sensory deprivation. No artificial environments. Ppl are different and context matters.

I just read a study that said that noise is a larger issue with our health. That the constant (even relatively low 50db) is being cited as a (contributing) source of depression, anxiety and physical ailments.
We know that each person likes what they like ...for better or worse.
But average humans don't prefer noise. They do prefer being around or at the very least interacting with other humans. This becomes an issue for many.

I like interaction with others. I like being around others. (We just had an old friend from high school come out to visit for a week - it was great hanging with them and they will be missed)
I also like my personal space. I like quiet when I want it and I like noise when I want to hear it. (Music preferably but I'll also take a V8 engine at my foot)

 

[dc38]

I also like my personal space. I like quiet when I want it and I like noise when I want to hear it. (Music preferably but I'll also take a V8 engine at my foot)

To quote that one African school teacher, "GULU GULU!"