Coronavirus

[Dave D]

The higher the density, the more difficult it is to contain.
So despite having a higher population density than Italy and Spain, the US and UK are doing better than them.

Don't forget that the U.S.A. is several weeks behind Italy and Spain, so it’s not a direct comparison yet.

 

[scout24]

Let's remember the U.S. has individual states, with State's Rights as well. A national plan has merit when you enjoy less individual freedom than we do here. See: Michigan protest. See also: NYS Governor Cuomo saying "We'll do what we want." Try that as a prefecture in China, a county in Ireland, etc. Despite best efforts to spin, you cannot have it both ways. Not quite full stop. :rolleyes:

 

[StarHalo]

Just in from Dr. Oz:

Lots of posts here are comfortable with the idea of "getting back to work" and that those who lost/will lose their lives in this were "probably just going to die anyway" - that level of comfort with collateral damage means discussion of acceptable child mortality is now on the table.

 

[bykfixer]

Child mortality rate?

I thought this thing kills 60+ year olds. Is this idea of squashing the public gotten so badly unpopular that we have to turn it into one of those "it's for the children" things? C'mon man. Really?

 

[BVH]

What is the full context of the Oz exchange above? I'd guess there's more to it.

 

[StarHalo]

What is the full context of the Oz exchange above? I'd guess there's more to it.

Oz is citing a Lancet article that estimates a 2-3% rise in mortality overall if schools are opened, not just specifically kids. Only a few would be kids, the rest of the thousands of deaths would be among those "probably going to die" already accepted here.

 

[knucklegary]

Star.. Now I feel much better knowing my little grandson nose picker will be my demise :sick2:

 

[nbp]

I think with no logical end in sight people’s fears of the realities of being out of work for the forseeable future are quickly outpacing their fears of the illness. With 22 million out of work and millions more on reduced income I think the loss of health Insurance and associated benefits, homes, and money to pay bills, buy food, etc. is a very pressing concern. Going hungry or dying of another illness you can’t buy your medicine for because you don’t have a job is just trading one set of health problems and deaths for another. I don’t think people want to “just get back to work” out of boredom or a desire for normalcy; they need to work to survive. The PPP aspect of the CARES Act is already maxed out in less than two weeks and unemployment can’t keep up. It’s not a desire to hurt others that causes people to want to go back to work, but a desire to keep their own family alive in the process.

 

[Greta]

What is the full context of the Oz exchange above? I'd guess there's more to it.

This is the full context:

DR OZ: "Schools are a very appetizing opportunity. I just saw a nice piece in The Lancet arguing the opening of schools may only cost us 2 to 3%, in terms of total mortality. Any, you know, any life is a life lost, but ... that might be a tradeoff some folks would consider."

Note he doesn't say 2-3% of children. And also, he does not say he supports it.

Edit added: It took me less than 10 seconds to find this information and to "fact check" the assertion Star Halo made above... and debunk it.

People... please do your fact checking before posting.

 

[bykfixer]

The arguments put forth by a few are being drowned out by the masses. I can't buy paint? Tomato seeds? I can't go to my job because the government says it's non essential? Same government who can buy tomato seeds, or paint or get a haircut. Same government who's benefits and pay have not been affected. Same government who determines how much they'll "give me" for staying at home when I could "earn" way more, and actually was in February. That's the chorus drowning out the "but but but you might die" argument.

I know a slew of parents right now who would probably be ok if little Johnnie or Jane went back to school right now. I know a ton of kids who are saying "please let me return to school" or "please let me walk across a stage on graduation night" only to be told by their government "you cannot think for yourself, you cannot help youself avoid the spread, we know what's good for you".
America is getting a real good dose of what a socialist government would be like and they're saying "no thank you". Meanwhile fence sitters toss out facts and figures to promote a dictatorial process "for the good of society". Uh huh.

Power corrupts. Always has, always will.

My governor held a press conference yesterday with a nice fresh haircut. Bad idea bro. Now had he been on stage with 5 o'clock shadow and ramshackled hair he might have come off a little more appealing to those hurting right now. Today protest #1 occured at the capital. Lots of people who aint had a haircut since he closed barber shops. Ironically was that about 1/3 of the crowd were nurses from a large prominent hospital a block or two away.

I see numbers rising faster than I'm comfortable with in my state right now. But cannot understand why the dentist is closed. He/she wore a mask long before this. Why can't I buy a pair of haircut scissors from a beauty supply store? Yet one of the dirtiest, filthiest things mankind invented called cash is being accepted everywhere. Why? Because plastic carries corona virus.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

The general conclusion is school closures may not play a significant role in controlling the spread of COVID-19. Russell Viner, from University College London and corresponding author on the new study, says looking at the SARS epidemic, school closures seemed to have little effect on stemming transmission. And, homing in more specifically on our current pandemic, the nature of this novel coronavirus suggests children may not be major drivers of community transmission.

https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/coronavirus-school-closures-how-long-when-reopen/

Of course, other experts disagree

 

[KITROBASKIN]

From the same article:

School closures during the 2014–16 Ebola epidemic increased dropouts, child labor, violence against children, teen pregnancies, and persisting socioeconomic and gender disparities,” the pair write in the correspondence. “Access to distance learning through digital technologies is highly unequal, and subsidized meal programs, vaccination clinics, and school nurses are essential to child health care, especially for marginalized communities. Schools provide safeguarding and supervision, and closures increase the economic burden of families using day care or their reliance on vulnerable older relatives. Working parents might leave children unsupervised or forgo employment to stay at home with them.”

 

[bykfixer]

Not to mention good old socialization KB. Humans are gregarious by nature.
(fond of company, sociable. Source: dictionary.com)

 

[bigburly912]

I was once tasked with watching some mini ponies/sheep/goats and a mule that almost killed me. Those guys didn’t know me from Adam but I fed them every morning and corralled them every evening. All they knew was that I fed them and they followed me blindly without question. I told them what to do where to go when to eat. That’s about all I want to say. It took little convincing that the authority of someone they just met was best for them.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Yeah it's really something to see a member posting accusations regarding some of us as being insensitive to the death, suffering and loss going on in the world, yet not so many posts back, the same author made bragging posts about getting a new fancy refrigerator and how much money they made off of their stock holdings in a company that is reaping a windfall of money, taking away from our local small businesses who are forced to not work because they are not considered essential, even though they could do business with social distancing.

Fixer,
I am in education. My child is regressing academically; he is not really learning meaningful social skills; and also importantly, he is not being exposed to the natural environment of 'germ spreading' that helps to keep all of humanity healthy. Do you think we are going to see an even higher rate of industrialized-nation allergies and sensitivities in our children as a result of this situation?

The lockdown seems to be working in general, hopefully we can begin to get back to allowing more people to "keep their own family alive in the process". Prayers to all who have lost their lives, and their suffering families.

 

[StarHalo]

Yeah it's really something to see a member posting accusations regarding some of us as being insensitive to the death, suffering and loss going on in the world, yet not so many posts back, the same author made bragging posts about getting a new fancy refrigerator and how much money they made off of their stock holdings in a company that is reaping a windfall of money, taking away from our local small businesses who are forced to not work because they are not considered essential, even though they could do business with social distancing.

Ah, this is a new one - so you're saying that I'm one of the bad people because I continued working, helping to get shipments to people stuck in their homes?

 

[bigburly912]

Kit- I was called a bigot for making a joke about CNN (I dislike all “big news” equally). So it doesnt surprise me. Some people thrive off playing victim.

 

[Johnnyh]

It is worth considering that a destroyed economy leaving millions of people unemployed might kill more people than this virus ever could. A “prominent Statesman” tried to express this a few weeks ago when he said “The cure can’t be worse than the disease”. Of course, he was swiftly denounced as “only interested in money”.

Part of the article shared by Greta stated: “...the statesmen must be concerned with the common good as a whole, not merely physical health, the economy, or national defense. He cannot elevate any one of these particular goods to the point that it eclipses all of the other things that make up the common good.” So true!

 

[bykfixer]

Yes KB, as we isolate more and more we don't get needed bad things that strengthen our immune systems.

Amazon didn't help me one bit. UPS did, so did Fed-Ex and RL Carriers. Food Lion and Wal Mart trucks helped too. McClane Foods, CVS, Target, Petco, Simple Shoes, and a bunch of other companies made sure I got what I needed or wanted. My community too.

My project is one where we are improving a through route from point a to point b of an Amazon warehouse and we have noticed Prime trucks are like honest politicians lately. ie rare indeed. People actually ask "where's all those Amazon trucks lately?" We see more Frito Lay trucks than Amazon trucks during this pandemic. So perhaps the big A has been a big help in some areas it sure aint been in my part of the planet.

Meanwhile my shiney new fridge came from a small local business deemed unessential. Good thing I bought it last year. Yup something goes wrong and somebody from there pops in my place and solves the issue or brings me a new one if they can't.

 

[flashy bazook]

COVID-19 emergency in the US starting to wind down.

Some good news on testing remdesevir. Study from Chicago.

I tried to find a story about this but google news refuses to provide any.

Caught a whiff of this by trying to track down why stock-market futures up after market close today.

But also federal government issuing new guidelines allowing states to open up in a phased way (3 phases, provided certain milestones in terms of declining cases/deaths are passed, and moves between phases allowed provided no backtracking).

Important state-by-state map shown indicating significant drops in cases in most states, of course some hot-spots persist.

The map shown in this forum earlier on per-capita cases by Chauncey Gardiner clearly shows how much better the US has done relative to almost all other countries. And medical care has also been superior here, in my opinion.

The famous NHS (national health service) in the UK, that everyone tells us how much better it is than our US health care system, has one ventilator for every five we have here per person. Their typical way of treating people is to ignore them (I have relatives there and they are almost never able to be admitted or even be seen and treated whenever they have a problem, admittedly they are young and haven't had huge trouble, but sometimes they did have serious trouble).

And one other thing about the map showing many more cases in the US. Well, please add up all those cases in individual countries in Europe, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, UK.,... The US is a continental country, you need to compare it with the total of Europe (US about 330m people, Europe perhaps 400 m depending on definition).

A few of the bigger European countries alone total more cases than the US, and way more deaths.

Really, those of us living in this country, the US, sometimes forget how lucky we are, and I speak as someone who has lived and traveled in many countries around the world.