Modern. 380 rounds vs 9mm

[orbital]

I think most folks over carry. I think right now the guns to get are the bodyguard 2 or p365 micro 9mm .the reeason i say 9mm is the more ammo availability

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availability____ and unless you get some total bargain bin 380 ammo, it's almost twice the price of 9mm.
380 is a cut down 9mm round,, if it was 20% cheaper than 9mm, it would be more of a selling point

 

[raggie33]

Yeah the 380 stuff is so high. For decent rounds like the federel self defense rounds .but ball ammo is a bit cheaper i saw 9mm ball for 10 bucks cor a box of blazer ball ammo recently was brass a course

 

[raggie33]

No matter what you carry learn safety first then pratice practice and pratice. Learn triger disapline ..learn target acquisition..get good at 5 yards then 15 then 25..learn ya and ammo you use. I dont have a weapn anymore but still watch training vids

 

[Robocop]

My dept keeps track of officer involved shootings as this info is gathered annually by the FBI and supplied to many agencies. As far as caliber goes there is no clear winner as there are so many variables involved. The main players over the last 30 years have been 9mm, 40, 10mm and 45 cal. You dont see much data on 380 as it is often not carried in anything other than a back up.

So many people get caught up in the drama surrounding what caliber is best and they ignore the other parameters such as shot placement, number of rounds on target, and speed of those rounds on target. From the actual data I have seen it appears the most critical factor in surviving an armed encounter is speed, In officer involved shootings if the officer gets first rounds on target they usually survive. Regardless of caliber the first person to get actual hits on a target usually live.

Now shooting rounds first is much different than hitting the target first. If you can get a round off first make sure it connects first. I have however seen people shot multiple times and although they may have went down they were still very capable of returning fire. It may have been only seconds of mobility however again still very much a threat. The most common survival scenario for police data shows an officer gets his shots off first and connects, Then this gives a brief second for the officer to retreat to a greater distance and survive. Do not stand there watching the threat after you connect just move and move away fast.

Now after all this data getting down to actually more effective calibers if all variables are the same is kind of random. The data I see today favors the 9mm and this is simply due to sheer numbers. It is the most common caliber and as such many more actual shootings with the 9mm are recorded. Older data showed higher quality 45 cal did well and I was shocked to see how well the good old 357 magnum did. It seems the 357 was very popular with police many years past and did really well stopping threats.

In the late 90s the 40 cal was showing high stopping rates however even more impressive was the 10mm. This is basically a 40 magnum and with the better quality hollow points was always in the top rankings. The data is again just numbers and regardless of your caliber of choice learn the firearm and learn it well. Be mentally prepared to actually engage and be effective when doing so. Also never boast and posture be humble and discrete and walk or even run away if an option.

 

[raggie33]

I dont think over penatation is thought about enough

 

[vadimax]

The p211 looks like a competition gun, for carry I would pass on it. While I like thumb safeties for concealed carry, I don't like grip safeties at all - too easy to safety yourself if you get a poor grip under stress. Also I wouldn't want a comp or a big flared mag well on a carry gun.

They’ve just released a P211-GT4 — a carry option. But yes, still with a grip safety.

 

[vadimax]

I dont think over penatation is thought about enough

There are no paper walls in Europe that are so popular in the US. But there is another pain in the ***: brick and concrete walls may deflect bullets… And in some cases you may even get your own bullet back.

 

[bluflaam777]

I dont think over penatation is thought about enough

That's what she said

 

[raggie33]

Ps those who are looking to get into hand guns for the lower budgets looks intothe taurus g3c or ruger rxm. The taurus is cheaper but rxm is a clone of a glocks proven design .i have seen the taurus for 229 dollars i think rxm is 400. The taurus gx4 is nice to very small wont print.

 

[xxo]

I dont think over penatation is thought about enough

I think misses are more of a concern. In police shootings, it's typical for 4 out of 5 (80%) shots to miss the intended target completely. I don't know what the stats are for civilian shootings or if anyone even collects the data.

Either way, you are responsible for every shot that comes out of your gun.

 

[xxo]

So many people get caught up in the drama surrounding what caliber is best and they ignore the other parameters such as shot placement, number of rounds on target, and speed of those rounds on target. From the actual data I have seen it appears the most critical factor in surviving an armed encounter is speed, In officer involved shootings if the officer gets first rounds on target they usually survive. Regardless of caliber the first person to get actual hits on a target usually live.

I think that is the key. It matters much more if you can get the first hit in a vital area than what caliber or type of ammo you are using (within reason). Being able to shoot fast and accurately under stress will give you the advantage much more than what caliber gun you have. Any reasonable gun that you always carry, is safe, that you shoot well and get fast follow up shots, that you train with will be better than relying on a more powerful gun that you don't shoot well or don't train with enough.

 

[alpg88]

Defensive shooting is not same as police shootings, not even close, there is little chance for follow up shots, every shot will be looked by a DA as a reason to throw more charges, for each shot there will be a separate charge, the more you shoot the more chances you hit someone else, unlike police, citizens do not have QI, you will be held accountable for every shot, even if you are justified shooting a threat you will still be charged if a bullet that came out of the bad guy hit unintended target, even if it hits a car someone was in, not the person. you will be charged for that, and be sure jury will find you guilty for that shot regardless of intent and situation, so you definitely need to worry about overpenetration, and number of shots you fired.

 

[alpg88]

I think that is the key. It matters much more if you can get the first hit in a vital area than what caliber or type of ammo you are using (within reason). Being able to shoot fast and accurately under stress will give you the advantage much more than what caliber gun you have. Any reasonable gun that you always carry, is safe, that you shoot well and get fast follow up shots, that you train with will be better than relying on a more powerful gun that you don't shoot well or don't train with enough.

When someone is high, or even drunk, you can empty your mag in them and they will still have several seconds or more before they fall, so unless you are shooting an intruder in your house, you really shooting to buy yourself seconds to get away. vast majority of stops are not physical stops, but psychological, people do not want to get shot again, so they run away. Of course training is essential, with any caliber, that goes without saying. Regardless of caliber, your first shot is the most important one. The only sure way to drop someone even when high or drunk is a headshot, but if you tell cops you aimed for the head, your chances in court just dropped to almost 0

 

[Chauncey Gardener]

... if you tell cops you aimed for the head, your chances in court just dropped to almost 0

"Aiming? Who was aiming? I was prayin n sprayin', n scared to death, your Honor."

 

[alpg88]

"Aiming? Who was aiming? I was prayin n sprayin', n scared to death, your Honor."

That is just as bad, you just admitted negligence. Just keep your mouth shut, and let your lawyer talk

 

[raggie33]

Thats why ill just run. And my paranoia also works as street smarts so i never let anyone get close enough to me.

 

[Chauncey Gardener]

That is just as bad, you just admitted negligence. Just keep your mouth shut, and let your lawyer talk

It was a joke.

 

[Robocop]

Yes there is no doubt Police are held to much higher standards than your every day civilian. Regardless of the standards the common denominator for both is to avoid deadly force if at all possible. We have all seen both officers and civilians that think they are the modern day equivalent of Wyatt Earp. They are the ones who put the punisher logo on their slides or buy those fancy guns with "come and take it" engraved on the handle. They strut around talking about how they wish someone would try them often saying something like "man I would not hesitate to smoke someone real quick" The new thing with attorneys is to carefully review bodycam before and after any deadly encounter. Many times you will hear officers saying all kinds of things that in the moment may be adrenaline however it is used against them. The officer on camera saying "man I was waiting on him to reach I knew I was going to blast his ***" will have issues in court later. What sounds better the above statement or "I was hoping he did not grab that gun I really did not want to have to shoot him" Be careful what you say before and after.

This is all bravado and not at all necessary if self defense is truly your objective. A responsible civilian gun owner ,and officer, is humble and non confrontational and does not go overboard trying to show off what they have. Anything else is simply for their ego and yes the negative behaviors I have discussed above can and will be brought out to haunt you should you ever find yourself defending yourself in court. I have seen many officers in my time that are always trying to advertise that they are an officer. They have shirts that say things like "I run towards what you fear" or maybe "kill them all and let god sort them out" you know just the way over blown fragile ego tactical type idiot.

This behavior makes it look like they are just begging for a confrontation and yes it has been used to much effect against officers. This is why many departments have rules about any patches, logos, or weird symbols on your uniforms or weapons. Many of the older officers will correct this behavior however the problem is the older ones are retiring out and the ones left often did not listen anyway. I plan to retire for good within 2 to 3 years and afterward will no doubt continue to carry a weapon. It will never be seen nor will it be drawn unless I really need to do so. I will keep the same habits as now in that I will always just try to avoid drama. Even when retired I understand that I may still find myself in court defending any action I may be forced to take. I will take those odds as I will be in the least still alive to do so.

 

[orbital]

I dont think over penatation is thought about enough

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To completely diffuse the debate

 

[alpg88]

There are many hollow points/expanding rounds out there. but their effect greatly depends on clothing someone wears, heavy denim cloth will likely affect how it opens up, some bullets/loads less, some more. also with pistols bullet shape, weight, may affect how it cycles, you got to find a round that works best with your pistol. some pistols will eat anything others may misfeed/jam with certain ammo.