A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
I'm new to this image hosting business. I'll see if I can't get a smaller version to post here.
Looking at the image of the burned battery's label, you can see the faintest hint of blue or green. The problem is, with all the other features of the image, you can't make out what the blue-green might be.
First I used GIMP's color enhance feature a few times, to better see what was going on, in a small area I had selected as active. Then I adjusted the red, yellow, and magenta channels to greyscale and dark. This had the effect of squashing everything non-blue/green to the black end of greyscale. Last I saturated and lightened the blue, cyan, and green channels. The end result is that any pixels that had even the slightest hint of blue or green became very bright, and all pixels without blue or green were made nearly black. Nothing has been added or interpolated. The smearing and big pixels are the result of original image compression and probably the nature of the camera's sensor (color-sensitive elements are spaced relatively few and far between compared to greyscale-sensitive elements -- your eyes are the same way).
Here's that smaller image:
And here is a smaller version of the other image. The processing is more or less the same, but I think I also contrast enhanced it by equalizing its histogram, and the whole image was processed to make the comparison between the two batts.
Scott
PS: Oh yes, they deserve credit for providing a hosting service so simple that even I can figure out:
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting
I'm new to this image hosting business. I'll see if I can't get a smaller version to post here.
Looking at the image of the burned battery's label, you can see the faintest hint of blue or green. The problem is, with all the other features of the image, you can't make out what the blue-green might be.
First I used GIMP's color enhance feature a few times, to better see what was going on, in a small area I had selected as active. Then I adjusted the red, yellow, and magenta channels to greyscale and dark. This had the effect of squashing everything non-blue/green to the black end of greyscale. Last I saturated and lightened the blue, cyan, and green channels. The end result is that any pixels that had even the slightest hint of blue or green became very bright, and all pixels without blue or green were made nearly black. Nothing has been added or interpolated. The smearing and big pixels are the result of original image compression and probably the nature of the camera's sensor (color-sensitive elements are spaced relatively few and far between compared to greyscale-sensitive elements -- your eyes are the same way).
Here's that smaller image:
And here is a smaller version of the other image. The processing is more or less the same, but I think I also contrast enhanced it by equalizing its histogram, and the whole image was processed to make the comparison between the two batts.
Scott
PS: Oh yes, they deserve credit for providing a hosting service so simple that even I can figure out:
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting
brightnorm
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:
"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."
Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 batteries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?
Brightnorm
From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:
"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."
Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 batteries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?
Brightnorm
deranged_coder
Enlightened
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:
"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."
Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 bateries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?
[/ QUOTE ]
How old is this PDF that you are quoting? Also, do you have any reason to suspect Surefire is doing something like this or is this just pure speculation on your part?
[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:
"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUTBecause of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."
Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 bateries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?
[/ QUOTE ]
How old is this PDF that you are quoting? Also, do you have any reason to suspect Surefire is doing something like this or is this just pure speculation on your part?
brightnorm
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
I wasn't able to find that link which I originally saw on CPF, but here's another one to Ultralife:
ULTRALIFE
The Surefire idea was pure speculation. I have been been very happy with 99%+ of the hundreds of SF 123s I've used over the years and appreciate their pricing breakthrough that has made use of these high-tech lights so much more affordable.
Still, I'd like to know more about which manufacturers are involved with this advanced Lithium chemistry, and whether the preeminent name in military tactical lighting is working with this promising technology.
Brightnorm
I wasn't able to find that link which I originally saw on CPF, but here's another one to Ultralife:
ULTRALIFE
The Surefire idea was pure speculation. I have been been very happy with 99%+ of the hundreds of SF 123s I've used over the years and appreciate their pricing breakthrough that has made use of these high-tech lights so much more affordable.
Still, I'd like to know more about which manufacturers are involved with this advanced Lithium chemistry, and whether the preeminent name in military tactical lighting is working with this promising technology.
Brightnorm
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
You can go to Energizer and Duracell websites to get information on the chemistry they use. I think it was Newbie who posted soem links about that. It was in spec sheets for the batteries, I think. Check some of the earlier pages on this thread.
Scott
You can go to Energizer and Duracell websites to get information on the chemistry they use. I think it was Newbie who posted soem links about that. It was in spec sheets for the batteries, I think. Check some of the earlier pages on this thread.
Scott
brightnorm
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Thanks Scott
BN
Thanks Scott
BN
Size15's
Flashaholic
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.
SureFire supplies many thousands of WeaponLights, not least as part of the US Army's Rapid Fielding Initiative. SureFire has the infrastructure to supply batteries and Battalion Support Field Maintenance Kits (KMU002's) etc
That I'm aware of, the SF123As the military use are the same ones we civis use.
The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.
SureFire supplies many thousands of WeaponLights, not least as part of the US Army's Rapid Fielding Initiative. SureFire has the infrastructure to supply batteries and Battalion Support Field Maintenance Kits (KMU002's) etc
That I'm aware of, the SF123As the military use are the same ones we civis use.
KevinL
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
brightnorm, it sounds like marketing.
Surefire used Duracell batteries for a long time and Duracell has always been very upfront about the fact that they're lithium maganese dioxide. It's right at the top of their datasheet in huge letters. I doubt SF would take a step backwards by switching to an inferior chemistry.. I do know that there's a lot of suspicion when there's a big price drop, but perhaps the case is one of markup, not really cost cutting. Perhaps all along the big names have marked up the cost of the battery substantially so the only thing SF is eroding are the profit margins. But SF has always stated upfront that they are about making the batteries affordable so that we can run the lights.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.
[/ QUOTE ]
GROUP BUY!!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif
brightnorm, it sounds like marketing.
Surefire used Duracell batteries for a long time and Duracell has always been very upfront about the fact that they're lithium maganese dioxide. It's right at the top of their datasheet in huge letters. I doubt SF would take a step backwards by switching to an inferior chemistry.. I do know that there's a lot of suspicion when there's a big price drop, but perhaps the case is one of markup, not really cost cutting. Perhaps all along the big names have marked up the cost of the battery substantially so the only thing SF is eroding are the profit margins. But SF has always stated upfront that they are about making the batteries affordable so that we can run the lights.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.
[/ QUOTE ]
GROUP BUY!!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif
Size15's
Flashaholic
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
SureFire SF123A like Duracell DL123A are LiMn02
(Are there any 123A batteries that aren't?)
The way Cameron explained it to me was that SureFire placed a rather large order (understatement) and therefore got a rather good deal. The price the customer pays for SF123As is the price of the batteries plus shipping and handling (transportation to SureFire from the battery factory) and if they are boxed or carded the cost of labour and materials for SureFire to do that.
When you buy SF34800-Bulk pallets they are delivered as they come from the battery factory I believe. That is why when you buy pallets they are slightly cheaper.
The aim of the SF123A battery is to provide the best quality American battery at cost price to the end user.
Al
SureFire SF123A like Duracell DL123A are LiMn02
(Are there any 123A batteries that aren't?)
The way Cameron explained it to me was that SureFire placed a rather large order (understatement) and therefore got a rather good deal. The price the customer pays for SF123As is the price of the batteries plus shipping and handling (transportation to SureFire from the battery factory) and if they are boxed or carded the cost of labour and materials for SureFire to do that.
When you buy SF34800-Bulk pallets they are delivered as they come from the battery factory I believe. That is why when you buy pallets they are slightly cheaper.
The aim of the SF123A battery is to provide the best quality American battery at cost price to the end user.
Al
brightnorm
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Considering the advantages of Li/MnO2 chemistry how likely is it that a matched pair (Li/Mn02/same mfr/same date) could explode as described in the first post of this thread?
Brightnorm
Considering the advantages of Li/MnO2 chemistry how likely is it that a matched pair (Li/Mn02/same mfr/same date) could explode as described in the first post of this thread?
Brightnorm
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
I think the only problem is where batteries are mismatched by state of charge, discharge curve (i.e., brand or type), or if one battery has a defect of some sort (could be from damage).
You can test short circuit current *briefly* and get a good idea if each battery is in good "health" but there will certainly be conditions that are not detectable.
I would set the probability of having a problem with mismatched batteries at "low:" you are more likely than not to get away with it ONCE. Do it a few times and you are more likely than not to have a problem.
I would set the probability of having a problem with matched but untested batteries at "extremely low:" maybe it will happen in your lifetime of flashlight use, but probably not.
I would set the probability of having a problem with matched, tested batteries at "insignificant:" if it has happened, I doubt there is enough data to quantify the risk. Freak accident; God must want to get your attention, or something.
Scott
I think the only problem is where batteries are mismatched by state of charge, discharge curve (i.e., brand or type), or if one battery has a defect of some sort (could be from damage).
You can test short circuit current *briefly* and get a good idea if each battery is in good "health" but there will certainly be conditions that are not detectable.
I would set the probability of having a problem with mismatched batteries at "low:" you are more likely than not to get away with it ONCE. Do it a few times and you are more likely than not to have a problem.
I would set the probability of having a problem with matched but untested batteries at "extremely low:" maybe it will happen in your lifetime of flashlight use, but probably not.
I would set the probability of having a problem with matched, tested batteries at "insignificant:" if it has happened, I doubt there is enough data to quantify the risk. Freak accident; God must want to get your attention, or something.
Scott
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Hello Brightnorm,
The problem comes from not having a matched State Of Charge. If one cell is almost completely drained and the other is fresh, when you turn the light on they try to equalize. That is what leads to these problems.
There is much discussion about how to protect the consumer from this problem. Single cell lights obviously do not have this concern, but in multi cell lights there is this possibility. You may start to see pairs of cells in heat shrink appearing in an effort to minimize the potential for this problem. If you have a 3 cell light, there still can be a problem, but there are more 2 cell lights out there and they have to start somewhere.
The basic safety rules still apply.
Don't mix brands of cells in a light.
Don't mix cells of different capacities.
When you pull cells from a light, throw them away or label them for use in single cell lights only.
Train others that have access to your lights in these simple rules.
You can take this one step further by limiting the use of multi cell lights to outside use and storing them away from combustibles. Also, you can remove the cells from you lights after use and check to see if they are hot and if they are cooling down.
Tom
Hello Brightnorm,
The problem comes from not having a matched State Of Charge. If one cell is almost completely drained and the other is fresh, when you turn the light on they try to equalize. That is what leads to these problems.
There is much discussion about how to protect the consumer from this problem. Single cell lights obviously do not have this concern, but in multi cell lights there is this possibility. You may start to see pairs of cells in heat shrink appearing in an effort to minimize the potential for this problem. If you have a 3 cell light, there still can be a problem, but there are more 2 cell lights out there and they have to start somewhere.
The basic safety rules still apply.
Don't mix brands of cells in a light.
Don't mix cells of different capacities.
When you pull cells from a light, throw them away or label them for use in single cell lights only.
Train others that have access to your lights in these simple rules.
You can take this one step further by limiting the use of multi cell lights to outside use and storing them away from combustibles. Also, you can remove the cells from you lights after use and check to see if they are hot and if they are cooling down.
Tom
brightnorm
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Much excellent advice but a little daunting for someone who has a whole herd of lights penned up in drawers and fully loaded.
Brightnorm
Much excellent advice but a little daunting for someone who has a whole herd of lights penned up in drawers and fully loaded.
Brightnorm
cheesehead
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Obviously, if you have a question about state of charge, check the voltage on the batteries and it should be with a 1/100 or 2/100 of a volt of each other.
Obviously, if you have a question about state of charge, check the voltage on the batteries and it should be with a 1/100 or 2/100 of a volt of each other.
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Hello Brightnorm,
What can I say...
With great power, comes responsibility... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Tom
Hello Brightnorm,
What can I say...
With great power, comes responsibility... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Tom
brightnorm
Flashaholic
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Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.
Excellent! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
BN
Excellent! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
BN
wojtek_pl
Enlightened
Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II
So, in short, the conclusion are:
1. DO NOT MIX BATTERIES FROM DIFFERENT PRODUCERS.
2. Do not use cheap batteries as this may turn out to be very expensive.
Just my thoughts form reading the whole thread...
So, in short, the conclusion are:
1. DO NOT MIX BATTERIES FROM DIFFERENT PRODUCERS.
2. Do not use cheap batteries as this may turn out to be very expensive.
Just my thoughts form reading the whole thread...
