A question for all you cavers...

[Mark620]

This thread has degraded enough that I may not be able to offer much useful information but here goes. . .

I cave a lot in big borehole passages where maximum output lets me see the whole cave. People with 60 lumen lights don't see anything but their immediate surroundings.

Your Zebralight is great for close up flood, but you need something to throw some lumens into the distance to really enjoy the caves.

Since you have a $300 budget or so, go with one of the cave-specific custom lamps. None of the plastic mainstream lights will compare with something truly built for the extreme environments found in caves.

Of course, plenty of my friends do very well with modified Apex's and similar 100+ lumen lights, especially when they have a supplemental hand held flashlight to throw some light where needed.

As far as I am concerned, I would rather strap two Rebel based MINI-Mags to either side of my helmet and get performance similar to some of the high end lights for 1/10 the cost and still have lights that are rather durable compared to the plastic lamps.

My custom light (Serv-Light 1.0 with 1 MC-E, 1 P7, and 1 P4) puts out about 450 lumens on high with a very clean combo of flood and throw that makes even the big borehole passages very well illuminated. For all the money I spend on gas driving to the caves, the least I can do is have the best light source I can get.

Hey Yucca,
Come up to TN with all your lights and I will see about getting a trip to Crashing Spire...

 

[bnemmie]

Wow, there's room for a 5000mAh pack inside your helmet? Is it on the top/roof of the helmet? If so, are you aware that foreign objects inside the helmet will negate much of the safety the helmet provides in that area? It may not be so much of a concern in some situations, but in vertical caves I personally wouldn't want anything big and hard on the inside of my helmet.

That thought did cross my mind when i was looking for a place to mount it. But after testing ( which involved me hitting my helmeed head with various hard objects lol) ) it never hit my head and i never felt unsafe. i even forget its there sometimes

there is something else i do if im using the headband and not the helmet. i have the 3 foot cable extender, so i just put the battery in the back pocket of my pants. or in my backack if im caving. it works well.

 

[TorchBoy]

I have my 5000 mAh battery mounted on the inside of my helmet and it has never given me a problem. It may not work for everyone but it does for me.

I'm with the guys who have already commented on this. Do you know how a helmet protects your noggin from an impact? I have a caving manual that points our even a chocolate bar in the top of a helmet in a cold cave could be lethal with an impact on top. If your battery pack is damaged by an impact would it be better inside or outside the helmet shell?

 

[TorchBoy]

Oh, there's another page...

Do you know how a helmet protects your noggin from an impact?

That thought did cross my mind when i was looking for a place to mount it. But after testing ( which involved me hitting my helmeed head with various hard objects lol) ) it never hit my head and i never felt unsafe.

I think that's a "no". A helmet will not be usable after a genuine test - or after a decent impact in a caving situation. It is designed to absorb a large amount of kinetic energy from the wearer falling or an impact from a falling rock, and will destructively deform as it does so. Any solid object on the inside of the helmet that shouldn't be there will prevent the helmet working as it should.

An example picture from the middle of last year of a foam-lined helmet after taking an impact is here. Viewer discretion advised because it's a little messy. Each cell of the foam would normally be round, but in taking an impact deformed to absorb the energy. The foam ended up considerably thinner and very likely saved the wearer's life and/or prevented brain damage.

I suspect your testing wouldn't have involved hitting your head that hard. Your battery pack really does belong on the outside of your helmet.

 

[bnemmie]

It hasnt been an issue before. ive used it for i think over two years now and to be honest, its worked so well i havent even thought about it much. but ill look into it and see if i can find a better solution. Thanks for the advice and concern.

 

[PeLu]

In the Duo price range, are there lights you would recommend over the Duo? Or are you just buying more expensive lights now?

Most (actually all serious cavers) people here learned that more expensive, dedicated caving lights are usually worth the money.


off topic about caving helmets:

I have a caving manual that points our even a chocolate bar in the top of a helmet in a cold cave could be lethal with an impact on top.

Just curious: Which manual is it?

Funny that I have this discussions since more than 30 years. It was quite popular with these 4.5V square pack batteries and foamless helmets.

Each cell of the foam would normally be round, but in taking an impact deformed to absorb the energy. The foam ended up considerably thinner and very likely saved the wearer's life and/or prevented brain damage.

.-)

This statement is made after about any hit of a helmet with more than a scratch on it. Not only about caving helmets.

 

[TorchBoy]

It hasnt been an issue before.

Because you haven't been hit or fallen before. :mecry: Until that happens a helmet is only dead weight or useful for protection from being careless where you put your head. And a place to hang lighting equipment.

Just curious: Which manual is it?

A British one, from memory. I'll see if I can dig it up.

This statement is made after about any hit of a helmet with more than a scratch on it. Not only about caving helmets.

Helmets really do work, and those not wearing helmets suffer serious injuries from relatively minor incidents. You can die just from falling over on pavement. In this case the helmet probably was a bit scratched - couldn't really tell under the red stuff - but it was primarily an impact rather than scraping, it clearly prevented his head from being much worse damaged, and it clearly couldn't be used again.

Edit: Actually the helmet had quite a few decent scratches beforehand. It was far from new.

 

[bstrickler]

Helmets really do work, and those not wearing helmets suffer serious injuries from relatively minor incidents. You can die just from falling over on pavement. In this case the helmet probably was a bit scratched - couldn't really tell under the red stuff - but it was primarily an impact rather than scraping, it clearly prevented his head from being much worse damaged, and it clearly couldn't be used again.

I can testify to that. My life has actually been saved by wearing a helmet when I was a kid. If I wasn't wearing it, the doctors told my parents I would've had severe brain damage, if I lived.

Here's a quick summary of what happened.

I was riding my bike down a sidewalk (I was racing my older brother) during the fall or something (when leaves and small branches are falling off the tree's), which was quite sloped (probably similar to that of a driveway). What we think happened, was that my front tire kicked up a good sized stick, which ended up getting caught in the spokes, and halted me suddenly, tossing me over the handlebars, and causing me to hit my head, and slide probably about 15 feet on the sidewalk. My body was pretty banged up, and had a black eye, as well, along with some unexplainable injuries (upper lip, where a moustache grows, was pretty scraped up, but my nose was unscathed, other than a small surface abrasion).

I can scan in the pictures, if you want.


In summary, Helmets really do save your head. I show those pictures to anyone I talk to that refuses to wear a helmet. Due to that, I've actually caused several people to change their mind, and buy a helmet, and safety gear for their motorcycle.

~Brian

 

[vali]

@Brian321: I read in another thread you did some caving recently. Can you tell us what headlamp did you buy in the end?

 

[Brian321]

@Brian321: I read in another thread you did some caving recently. Can you tell us what headlamp did you buy in the end?

I have not bought one yet as i am still undecided, I am still using the ZL H501 for now. I did however pre-order a new ZL H31 but im not sure i want to use that for caving.

I would like something with a little better runtime with different brightness levels for caving so i am still looking.

There is a MVOR coming up and there will be alot of venders there, so i might just wait till then and see what they have, I just dont know yet :shrug:.

 

[uk_caver]

I can testify to that. My life has actually been saved by wearing a helmet when I was a kid. If I wasn't wearing it, the doctors told my parents I would've had severe brain damage, if I lived.

+1 to that.
I had a high-speed (~30mph) front wheel lockup when sprinting in London traffic. I went over the bars, headplanted into the road with a bang, slid along upside down in cycling position (but having lost the bike), and flipped over at the end to sit neatly on the road, completely unmarked apart from a small fraying on my back trouser pocket where I had a bunch of keys.
I was by the front wheels of a large parked coach, the somewhat damaged bike by the back wheels.
The helmet (a very solid Kiwi unit with a thick polycarbonate shell over foam) only looked slightly scratched, but without it I'd have been lucky to escape without some nasty injuries. As it was, all I ended up with was a back which stiffened up severely over the nest couple of days, and then eased back to normal.

 

[TorchBoy]

I've done a bit of in-cave testing of a new homemade headlamp with a 1000+ lumen high mode (centre-weighted flood). Initial reaction from party members was quite favourable. Instead of finding me a menace to cave with, they appreciated being able to see formations on the ceiling of medium sized chambers. I note they were facing away from me because I was tail-end charlie at the time. I thoroughly recommend having the option of lots of light.

[/I]method of changing modes: eg single pushbutton, rotary, multiple toggles, wireless fear sensor

I had that happen at one point when I got to a downclimb and must have bumped the headlamp hard enough to change modes, thereby upping the brightness considerably. I've changed the battery pack since then, I think removing the feature.

Brian321, any updates?

 

[Brian321]

I've done a bit of in-cave testing of a new homemade headlamp with a 1000+ lumen high mode (centre-weighted flood). Initial reaction from party members was quite favourable. Instead of finding me a menace to cave with, they appreciated being able to see formations on the ceiling of medium sized chambers. I note they were facing away from me because I was tail-end charlie at the time. I thoroughly recommend having the option of lots of light.


I had that happen at one point when I got to a downclimb and must have bumped the headlamp hard enough to change modes, thereby upping the brightness considerably. I've changed the battery pack since then, I think removing the feature.

Brian321, any updates?

Nope im still looking for that perfect headlamp. I will know when i see it.

I want to try the HP10 but everyone is out of stock because Fenix is redoing the switch.

I would be interested in buying a modified one if you know someone who will sell/make me one.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[TorchBoy]

I would be interested in buying a modified one if you know someone who will sell/make me one.

I'll excuse myself from that task as I'm still not happy with the waterproofness of my homemade jobs. Some good Petzl Duo drop-ins are available, like one that uses a Cree XR-E with an 8° optic to replace the halogen bulb. It provides a better beam than the halogen and longer runtime. The HP10 is very good and has a very good beam, but it's let down by the diffuser which is not robustly attached and is easy-to-lose. (BTW, you don't have to quote everything, just what you're specifically replying to.)

 

[Brian321]

(BTW, you don't have to quote everything, just what you're specifically replying to.)

Yea i know i was just to lazy to do it.

Brian

 

[Matjazz]

Some good Petzl Duo drop-ins are available, like one that uses a Cree XR-E with an 8° optic to replace the halogen bulb. It provides a better beam than the halogen and longer runtime.

Where can one get one?

 

[TorchBoy]

A guy in Britain makes and sells them, but I can't remember where to find his contact details. I've seen them mentioned on either CPF or a caving forum and earlier this month I met a guy who has one. I'll see if I can find some info.

 

[kevinm]

Where can one get one?

http://customduo.co.uk/default.aspx

I also modify one of the off the shelf drop-ins to give you 100-120 lumens from 400mA and anything in the 2-9 volts range.

I'd ship one to you if you are in the US for $40.

Kevin

 

[kevinm]

Double post post!

 

[uk_caver]

A guy in Britain makes and sells them, but I can't remember where to find his contact details. I've seen them mentioned on either CPF or a caving forum and earlier this month I met a guy who has one. I'll see if I can find some info.

You met him in New Zealand?
If so, and his name was Paul, that might have been one of mine.