Big Jim (PAR36 Lantern) Hotwire List

YAK-28

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I hope I'm not reaching to far off with this question, but would it be a benefit to have "heatsink" head like fm's 4.5 over a "big beam" ish stock type when trying some of the aircraft landing light mods? I thinking led mods need the heatsink, but what about the incandescent mods? Do they needed the heatsinking for performance?

please move or delete this if this in the wrong thread.
 

Bimmerboy

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Why, in fact, yes! They DO benefit from finning.

One CPF'er around here explained part of the answer by relating it to cooking fish. You see, the reason why the fins have to be removed when you cook fish, is that they dissipate heat so well. If you don't remove the fins, the fish won't heat through.

Now reverse the equation, and apply the laws of Thermodynamics. When the fish is alive, and swimming, it has to get rid of it's body heat from all that activity. The fins transfer the heat to the water.

We want to apply these principles to incan bulbs because, like fish, they are happier when run cool... preferably underdriven by a good few volts.

Hopefully, some of the experts will chime in on this.
 

JimmyM

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It's not the bulb itself that benefits from cooling. It's everything else around it. We're adding electrical energy to MAKE heat to illuminate the filament. If we cool it down, it produces less light. If it's running so hot that it doesn't last long, don't run it so hot. Don't try to heat sink it for the sake of cooling the bulb. That's like turning the air conditioner on in the winter because the heat is set too high.
It's the stuff around it that suffers from the heat.

I still don't understand the fish fins thing. Where would they be dissipating the heat TO? The oven? The air in the oven is what's cooking the fish. In that case the fins would make the fish cook faster.

Why, in fact, yes! They DO benefit from finning.

One CPF'er around here explained part of the answer by relating it to cooking fish. You see, the reason why the fins have to be removed when you cook fish, is that they dissipate heat so well. If you don't remove the fins, the fish won't heat through.

Now reverse the equation, and apply the laws of Thermodynamics. When the fish is alive, and swimming, it has to get rid of it's body heat from all that activity. The fins transfer the heat to the water.

We want to apply these principles to incan bulbs because, like fish, they are happier when run cool... preferably underdriven by a good few volts.

Hopefully, some of the experts will chime in on this.
 

Bimmerboy

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Hi, Jimmy. I was kidding. Couldn't resist the tease. :devil:

Had YAK asked about chip weevils, then we woulda' been talkin' serious stuff! :crackup:
 

YAK-28

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I was asking because I'm thinking about trying to upgrade an older big beam light. I've got one of Fm's new 4.5 heads on order and that looks so much more "heavy duty" compared to the older big beam lights. I was thinking the older light weren't heavy duty enough for the effort and maybe I should try the FM/mag combo and forget the big beam idea. The Par36 bulbs sound like an easier(less expensive) way to go with the big beams.
 

LuxLuthor

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Bumped and subscribed as related to FM's recent sale here.

Discussing Ictorana's musings about overdrive voltage end point in that thread...

Of course, like all good Incan Jockeys, the first question is how far can I overdrive my incan bulb? Ultimately, there is only one way to know for sure. I regret only having a 30V/20A power supply, but I doubt you would want to push these bulbs much higher anyway.

We know in general that a bulb's overdrive career is improved with higher default spec rating. We know that the life rating is derived from the manufacturer (ideally) testing many hundreds/thousands of their bulbs at default voltage and determining when they die. Then they take the 50% mean peak of all the failure times, which becomes the life rating. They don't turn it off and on. They don't vibrate it. They use a clean DC supply which performs better than AC.

When looking at these Par 36 4.5" bulbs, I was drawn to Martek's brand because of price. Looking at their website here, shows they have been in business for 35 years. I called them and asked to speak with an engineer or someone who knew advanced details about their Par36 sealed bulbs, and ended up being transferred to Bob Anzalone who I found out later is the President and has an engineering background.

I described our intended application, and used the 4587 sealed Par36 4.5" 250W 25hrs life as a discussion point. After the call, I saw that they resell a number of name brand bulbs in many sizes, so now I am guessing that the Martek brand is made by someone else, but I didn't ask that question.

In general, Bob felt there was some leeway, but the 25 hour default was limiting. He agreed a soft start, and minimizing vibration/trauma would be important. He would not commit to how much upwards leeway, even when presented with my being willing to accept only 5-8 hours of bulb life. In part, I honestly don't think most of these people in Bob's position routinely do what I did in my destructive testing to see what the failure point is with increased voltage. I also suspect that the GE is a better quality bulb than the Martek, just based upon the price.

So, ultimately we are back to where we were before I started doing destructive testing...using the bulb life as a guide...but I will likely get out the power supply and pick a couple sacrificial lambs, and slaughter them in the back yard during the day in case they explode.

Edit, now that I found GE's spec sheet pdf here, I don't see much point in going beyond the Q4509 which has 140,000 CP, life 100 hours, and only 13V. Now the only question is trying to figure out if the GE model is twice as good as the Martek brand. I doubt that. I'm not sure who is making what between Martek/Galaxy without talking to Martek. My live chat at Aircraft Spruce guy didn't know who made Martek. Also, note the higher price of Galaxy 4509Q $19.95 vs. the Martek at $14.75 In any case, I ordered two $$$ GE & two Martek 4509Q, and will destructive test the Martek, and assume the twice as expensive GE is better.
 
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Justin Case

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See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.
 

YAK-28

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how do think a 28volt bulb, maybe only driven by 20 or 24 volts would preform? would/could it still be brighter than say the 4509 at 13 volts? or would it be to under driven. i don't have a soft start or 3 way switch yet and i worried about just killing the bulb at startup
 

donn_

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I ordered 3 of the Martek Q today. I had intended to sacrifice one to testing, but will hold off to hear Lux' results. I'm so impressed with the results of the 4509 at what is probably slightly under spec voltage ( several body joints in my host must be adding resistance) I will probably be happy with the Q at close to spec.
 

LuxLuthor

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how do think a 28volt bulb, maybe only driven by 20 or 24 volts would preform? would/could it still be brighter than say the 4509 at 13 volts? or would it be to under driven. i don't have a soft start or 3 way switch yet and i worried about just killing the bulb at startup

I would strongly advise you not to bother with the 28V models, especially underdriving it that severely--which will make it a sickly, orange crush color.

Donn, I'm pretty sure the Martek 4509Q will be worthwhile, and maybe I'm overpaying for the GE. We'll see, but I don't plan on destructive testing the GE-Q at its higher price.
 
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LuxLuthor

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See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.

Excellent reference. I even printed it out. The information on the Q (vs. plain 4509) model's increased heat leading to more blackening of the reflector, despite the longer inner filament bulb life is very interesting. First thought is using this in shorter periods to avoid overheating. Thanks! :twothumbs
 
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nighttrails

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See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.
This report provides a delayed answer to the question posed by YAK-28 in post#41. Seems like his question was actually right on after all.
 

YAK-28

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while i was looking for some more bulb choices for a few big beam lights that i've picked up, i came across some of the lower powered choices at grainger.com and also mcmaster.com. they seem to be a little pricey, but atleast they list options to shop around for.
 

LuxLuthor

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I got the results of the Martek 4509Q which I'll add to the destructive thread for easy reference. The bottom line is it flashed at 18.8 Volts; 8.7 Amps. No explosions. Took a couple photos (thumnails) (Tree shots both 1/3 Sec, F-2.8, ISO-100, AWB)

Martek-4509Q.jpg



 
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Justin Case

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Does anyone know if the GE 4509, GE Q4509, or Martek 4509Q can withstand the thermal shock from getting the front glass wet, say from a cold rain, while the light has been running long enough to get hot? In its small aircraft landing light application, it seems that the typical installation has a covering/fairing over the 4509 lamp, shielding the lamp somewhat from the elements.
 

Raoul_Duke

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Does anyone know if the GE 4509, GE Q4509, or Martek 4509Q can withstand the thermal shock from getting the front glass wet, say from a cold rain, while the light has been running long enough to get hot? In its small aircraft landing light application, it seems that the typical installation has a covering/fairing over the 4509 lamp, shielding the lamp somewhat from the elements.

Well Justin....There's only one way to find out for certain....:poke: :nana: :D

TBH I dont know...Havent even got round to getting one yet, but my 6V one doesn't get anywhere near hot enough for me to think it would be a problem.
 
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