Comprehensive Grease and Lube Thread

[McGizmo]

I wanted to add a couple comments. First and foremost, I don't consider myself to be an expert on the various O-ring materials or lubes. I have done some experimenting and have some experience in use which has biased and become the basis for my opinions. I am always open and willing to stand corrected on these issues.

Another consideration regarding some of these lights is that of the electrical conductivity across some of the metal components and how or to what extent various lubes may impact this. In many lights, the ground path is caried through the threads and these are threads which are often getting lubricated. As I recall, SureFire recommended two versions of the nyogel and this was based on whether there was an electrical path involved in the lube joint.

 

[LuxLuthor]

I have no issues with getting grease on anything. Threads and o-rings are concealed, and unless you frequently take your light apart, I don't see how you could be spreading the lube all over.

TC, to answer your valid question, with most my lights I am removing the tailcap to replace/recharge batteries. As you may know, many SF lights do not run long on primary cells. I would typically open the tailcap once a day if heavy use, or every couple days. That is a repeated exposure to the threads and their grease. If dirty, it is also a concern of staining tables, and also indicating metal and/or rubber breakdown.

I won't get into my opinions of the various snake oils here, including the Krytox. There is always something better out there, certainly claimed anyway, and often in reality.

I wanted to add a couple comments. First and foremost, I don't consider myself to be an expert on the various O-ring materials or lubes. I have done some experimenting and have some experience in use which has biased and become the basis for my opinions. I am always open and willing to stand corrected on these issues.

Another consideration regarding some of these lights is that of the electrical conductivity across some of the metal components and how or to what extent various lubes may impact this. In many lights, the ground path is caried through the threads and these are threads which are often getting lubricated. As I recall, SureFire recommended two versions of the nyogel and this was based on whether there was an electrical path involved in the lube joint.

McG !!! Your craftsmanship is an example of being of such high quality that your products almost don't need any lube. :bow:

Your posts seem to be more concerned with various O-Ring issues, which for me personally is almost irrelevant in flashlights. Obviously for underwater waterproofing of cameras, scuba equipment, etc. that is crucial. In any case, you may wish to clarify your "snake oil" comment which casts aspersions with a wide net.

My comments have been mostly directed at the protection of the metal on metal threads, especially the softer aluminum lights that are not machined well.

Here was the post from 2002 quoting a SF engineer as to why they used Nyogel 779ZC on O-Rings, & 759G on Aluminum threads. Note that when I read the original Nye source documents, it appears the SF Engineer reversed the application of the two items:

• Their 779ZC data sheet

• Their 759G data sheet

Quite interesting to see this confusion from the engineer, and paucity of information on their data sheets is the foundation we have relied upon. :thinking:

Here is a much better description by Lighthound of the two lubes which is worth reading. I love the first photo showing the dirty threads, and note how it is dismissed despite brand new lights from SF arrive looking like that. It is a more helpful presentation, but I am still not left with a clear understanding of the proper use and different applications between them.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

why could/would you not use it?? can you share here - or maybe you could PM me - from my experience this nano-oil is one of the best lubes out there IMHO :thinking: and it would be a shame if you don't use it from a bad experience? or a misunderstanding of how to use it.

I'm not saying I won't use it. I'm just saying I won't use it on anything I place a high value on. Lets just say I've had a couple of very unpleasant experiences, and leave it at that. I would rather not turn this thread into an argument over Nano-Oil, as there are already closed threads that do just that.

As I have stated before, I have found several uses for Nano-oil, I will just never use it on my lights, or any of the lights that pass through my shop.

 

[Glenn7]

OK - sorry no flaming intended I defiantly respect your opinion - the world would be a boring place if we all had the same opinion and used the same things IMO

 

[McGizmo]

..... In any case, you may wish to clarify your "snake oil" comment which casts aspersions with a wide net.

......

Lux,

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term but even though I personally have found that the Krytox 50-50 blend that I came up with has been the best lube for my applications (silicone O-rings and titanium metal) I don't know for a fact it is the best lube or why it might be the case. I read numbers of great testimonials here on CPF about the nano-lube and ended up purchasing a number of bottles thinking it would be a lot easier to apply than the krytox. Unfortunately it didn't live up to my hopes or succeed as a successor to the krytox. Someone mentioned Tri-Flow above and for years, that was my lube of choice and when I ran a moped store with my brother and I did all of the mechanics, I used that stuff like water. It would not surprise me that it would be ideal for some of the flashlights. I digress. I used the term snake oil because few of us if any actually know what the chemistry is in these lubes or what we ideally wish to gain from their use in terms of mechanical and electrical support or aid. There is no clear or widely accepted superior product here and there have been varied successes reported by users on the same lights with the same lube.

On the SF lube recommendations, I recall looking into the data sheets and being confused by what SF recommended compared to what the manufacturer recommended.

Beyond some users liking the "float" they experience with a grease suspended between the threads, to my knowledge, excessive grease can impede the performance and certainly is a ready host to suspended grit and foreign particles which may be abrasive in themselves. I would guess that with any of these lubes, there is an optimal amount to be applied and the performance under optimal conditions may well be noticeably different than the performance if too little or too much is used. Perhaps this accounts for the varying degrees of success reported by different users?

The requirements of a lube/ protectant in the case of raw aluminum to raw aluminum where the metal is also part of the ground path could be a completely different situation than one where you have anodized aluminum in contact with anodized aluminum and no electrical path involved. Mix your metals or go to different metals and the situation may be different again.

I have read of real concern of some users when it comes to titanium that galling might occur and what can be done to avoid this. I have never encountered a case of galling in a Ti flashlight. I do have a prototype SF weapon light somewhere where two of the components (aluminum) have galled and there is no way you are going to get them apart. For all I know, a grease may have held an aluminum burr suspended between the threads until it got wedged in compression in the threads and welded the threads together. Had the threads been dry and this chip dropped out...... I recall one or two other situations where I had some aluminum components gall and I had a couple chrome plated aluminum lights that never got built out because the head and power pak ended up welded together. Some components really need to break in prior to a lube that will impede further abrasion and some are prime for use immediately and the hope of a proper lube is that of extending the life and duty cycle.

In some threaded components, stiction is a non issue because these threads are static except for battery change. In others, these threads are part of the activation process and you want smooth and consistent performance.

I am not sure what point or points I am trying to make here but in the spirit of this thread being a "comprehensive grease and lube thread" there should at least be some examples of sincere confusion expressed and I willingly offer that up! :nana:

I think the materials involved (metals and O-rings) as well as the specific application or function of these materials need to be considered when it comes to lubrication and protection. Lubrication and protection may be in conflict to some extent. Case in point. If I were using a classic SF type aluminum light where the threads are static and not anodized, I would use lanocote on these threads. I don't consider lanocote as a lube but I have not seen anything come close to it in terms of protecting the aluminum from corrosion and especially when current is passing through.

 

[LuxLuthor]

The requirements of a lube/ protectant in the case of raw aluminum to raw aluminum where the metal is also part of the ground path could be a completely different situation than one where you have anodized aluminum in contact with anodized aluminum and no electrical path involved. Mix your metals or go to different metals and the situation may be different again.

You did seem to cover many bases--LOL! I agree that we are making decisions without a comprehensive list of lube components to make accurate statements. I also doubt any who have posted thus far have adequate expertise in chemical/mechanical/electrical engineering to speak conclusively on what is happening with a given lube at the microscopic, electrical, or molecular level.

We are making comments based upon incomplete product compositions, a variety of metal compositions (& surface treatments such as HA, plating, etc.) thread applications, a plethora of plastic and flexible O-ring parts, and unknown scenarios & degrees of electrical conduction.

I'm categorizing my comments and recommendations as how various lubes look, feel, & perform...rather than providing real science.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

It would be nice if we could figure out a way to test the various lubes, with a quantifiable result. I have no idea how to go about this, but it would be great if there could be some suggestions thrown out there.

 

[LuxLuthor]

It would be nice if we could figure out a way to test the various lubes, with a quantifiable result. I have no idea how to go about this, but it would be great if there could be some suggestions thrown out there.

It is a good thought. It seems hard to do objectively if you don't know the exact trade secret lube compositions. Then treating a given set of threads with a specific lube would result in chemical/structural changes that would alter subsequent lubes.

It would require a sophisticated level of calibrated testing equipment, and chemical/microscopic analysis equipment.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I don't think it really needs to be overly specific. It's not like we need the results to be good enough for lab use.

 

[js-lots]

I didn't even notice DeoxIT in the list. Pro Gold should not be in the list as it is not be used as a lubricant for flashlight threads or orings. I've used Pro Gold for numerous of things over the years. Quite expensive (the pen I have was $15-$20 IIRC) & a great product but it's really a protectant for electrical contacts. I mainly use it on relays & switch contacts, really does good job at preventing corrosion but the contact must be deoxidized first. I sometimes use it on battery contacts for flashlights but that's about it.

I was very skeptical of Nano Oil of working as a good lube for flashlight threads & orings because it's such a lightweight oil that doesn't seem to fit here. I'm sold as it does perform exactly as the others have described. Going to order some Nano grease to try as well.

I too was using deoxit gold on all of my flashlights. However, I did notice that this seem to leave a discolored film on my threads and o rings. Also, I was using dielectric grease as well and this was getting the job done but it seemed to be a little thick and slightly sticky. After scouring this thread I ordered the nano oil. I received it today and after a thorough cleaning, I used it on a few of my flashlights. I am very pleased with it. It is clean, no odd smell and made my threads as smooth as butter. I bought the $16.00 pen type applicator and it appears to have enough to last me a very long time.

 

[ejot]

It would be nice if we could figure out a way to test the various lubes, with a quantifiable result. I have no idea how to go about this, but it would be great if there could be some suggestions thrown out there.

I don't think it really needs to be overly specific. It's not like we need the results to be good enough for lab use.

As an R&D engineer with a physical sciences background, you would be hard-pressed to find someone more generally supportive of carefully-planned, well-documented quantitative assessment. However, in this case, I'm not sure how much there is to be gained from casual performance tests, and not sure how useful more exhaustive performance tests would be.

Reason being, we're dealing in many cases with classes of lubricants whose capabilities far exceed the demands placed on them in flashlight use. There are ASTM scientists who have spent their careers pushing lubricants to their extremes in multi-thousand hour tests exploring a vast spectrum of properties.

As I've made known, my personal preference is Krytox -- and this is due to my familiarity with it from the semiconductor industry. We use it for seals that see hundreds of degrees and highly corrosive chemistries, bearings that see tens of thousands of rpms, pumps that maintain ultra high vacuum protecting high-dollar cassettes of wafers. It's used where lubricant failure can result in tens of millions of dollars of damage and injury/death to an equipment operator. My point here is not to plug the product further, or even to suggest that its greatest capabilities are particularly relevant for flashlight use.

Quite the opposite in fact: There are many products that are more than capable of doing what we need them too. A flashlight-use-based comparison test between the top contenders would be nearly akin to pitting Schrödinger against Einstein against Bohr with a Physics 101 exam; they're all going to do quite well.

Certainly there is room for opinions, preferences, and discussion. But with respect to quantiative performance evaluation; we're pushing these top products to exactly 0.00054% of their capability. (I just measured it ).

 

[electromage]

I'd like to know if anyone has experience using XF-7 on flashlight threads. I see that Maxpedition carries it in their online store, and it looks like it would work very well as a flashlight lube.

 

[ejot]

I do agree that it gives a nicer, smoother lube than the Nyogel 759, and so far I am not seeing the typical gray discoloration, but it's early. Having gotten used to the Nano-Oil, I find this Krytox to be heavier/stickier than Nyogel, and way more than Nano-Oil. I need to really get a handgrip on the tailcaps to work them on/off with Krytox, whereas the Nano-Oil allows fingertip control.

I apologize for the double post, and I hope quoting an excerpt is OK. I don't believe I'm removing any context here.

With regards to the viscosity of Krytox: Krytox greases all start from a base of clear, liquid Krytox oil. The viscosity of a particular version is dependent on the amount and exact type of fluoropolymer thickeners that are added, specifically for the reason of creating a grease instead of a liquid. As such, there is a great variety of available thicknesses, and the thickness of one sample is not indicative of what's available.

I selected a version with what I find to be a perfect viscosity, and from this description it is much thinner than what you used. I find it to be the least sticky grease I've ever handled (test method: the good 'ol rub-between-index-finger-and-thumb-test). It results in a smoother threading action than anything else I've tried, in many cases turning a "two-hander" into a "one-hander".

 

[darkzero]

I just received som Krytox 50/50 mix from nfetterly to try on Ti threads. I applied some on my Ti "PD-K" & it doesn't seem to feel any better from the Parker Super O lube I had on it previously. In fact I feel the Parker Super O lube felt better than this Krytox mix. It doesn't seem to coat the threads evenly after some twisting. It will "bead" up in clumps in areas & does not seem to cover well. Not sure if there's a considerable difference in ratio mix between this one & the mix offered from the Shoppe or what Don uses if any different. I shook the bottle pretty well just in case the two compounds seperated & reapplied but had the same results. It doesn't seem to be the same mix as what comes on Ti PDs from Don. I'll keep it on there for a few days to see if it "breaks in" but I don't see that it should need a break in period.

Just for kicks I added a couple drops of nano oil to it & it then turned into a greasier consistency & now covers well. More like a greasy mess. Maybe the bottle I have does not have enough GPL101 oil mixed in or so I feel.

Perhaps I will try some GPL226 from Tekno next and/or 50/50 from the Shoppe.

 

[Russel]

Wow, this is a very long thread! Very interesting subject.

I use a gasket lubricator with silicon grease to lubricate o-rings in flashlights (and watches.) But, I use superlube to lubricate the threads on flashlights.

No claims as to what is best, this is just what I use.

I tried lubricating the threads of my modified 2C Mag-Lite with an Philips LUXEON III emitter with thermal grease to enhance thermal conductivity. But, determined that there was no advantage after running the flashlight for an hour with dry threads, then with thermal grease on the threads, while monitoring the temp.

 

[LuxLuthor]

I apologize for the double post, and I hope quoting an excerpt is OK. I don't believe I'm removing any context here.

With regards to the viscosity of Krytox: Krytox greases all start from a base of clear, liquid Krytox oil. The viscosity of a particular version is dependent on the amount and exact type of fluoropolymer thickeners that are added, specifically for the reason of creating a grease instead of a liquid. As such, there is a great variety of available thicknesses, and the thickness of one sample is not indicative of what's available.

I selected a version with what I find to be a perfect viscosity, and from this description it is much thinner than what you used. I find it to be the least sticky grease I've ever handled (test method: the good 'ol rub-between-index-finger-and-thumb-test). It results in a smoother threading action than anything else I've tried, in many cases turning a "two-hander" into a "one-hander".

ejot, I appreciate and enjoy reading your responses. It does sound like an apt comparison between the physicists taking the test in terms of our demands not remotely pushing the limits of various lube capabilities....and I agree having a casual analysis will be more likely devolve into a differing set of preferences.

You definitely are describing a thinner viscosity than the syringe I got from TC (GPL-226). I personally am interested in something that protects threads from metal on metal under tailcap spring tension (i.e. a Maglite D as example), more than the uses you described in your previous post #111. Krytox may also be doing this, but the 4 lights I have put this GPL-226 on are too thick for my preference.

As you say, most of the quality lube companies are custom designing for a specific application. I was just surprised with a company of SureFire's reputation, that all six of the lights I have ordered from them to date arrive with the messy, aluminum-gray discolored lube, which I believe are the Nyogel blends. I find a similar discoloration from all the Maglite Mods on arrival I have ordered from FiveMega, who says he uses "Sil-Glyde 765-1351"

If I thoroughly clean and re-apply fresh, clean Nyogel, in short order it is "crapped up" again, and I notice wearing off of the thread metal, mostly at the starting edges.

I don't know if the blends of Krytox being discussed here are designed for the metal on metal--under spring tension--protection, but it seems intuitive that a lube made for gasket/rubber/O-ring seals under pressure, and/or with chemical/heat/waterproof protection may not be ideal for flashlight threads.

Again, I don't know enough about the specifics and hard science of all these lubes, other than my practical observations and tactile feel to say anything profoundly objective. I know I don't like Nyogel for the above listed reasons, and despite the apparent overwhelming endorsements and use by SureFire. I also know I am glad I found Nano-Oil. Perhaps if I had a thinner batch of Krytox I would like the feel better...but I'm not that motivated to mix and store custom batches of a lube when I found one that is preventing metal damage.

 

[DM51]

LuxLuthor's point about Nyogel quickly becoming discolored is a good one. I'd like to comment on it from a particular viewpoint - that of scuba diving. Please note that I am not a qualified chemist or anything of that kind.

To divers, O-rings are a matter of life or death. We have them in our regulators, lights, camera housings, etc, etc. An O-ring failure at depth can kill you.

That is why we always use silicone grease, as it is compatible with all O-rings used in all diving equipment. Nyogel is a silicone grease, and AFAIK perfectly OK for diving applications, although I don't know any divers who use it - most just use the little tubes you get in dive shops which cost a few $s but last a long time.

For specialist applications such as rebreathers, where high partial pressures of oxygen are present, we move from plain silicone grease to Krytox. Krytox is Oxygen safe - in other words, it won't oxidise or cause problems in O2-rich environments.

Krytox is therefore the ultimate safe grease for scuba divers to use. It is more expensive than regular silicone grease, but again, a little goes a very long way.

I make no comment about the consistency/viscosity of either Nyogel or Krytox here - for diving, you don't want something that is too thin, but for out-of-water use a really good thin lubricant is definitely preferable.

Going back to LuxLuthor's point about the Nyogel discoloration, the reason for this is very probably the same reason why rebreather divers would not use it - it is oxidising on the threads of the lights. Whether or not (or how much) this affects its performance as a lubricant I don't know. I suspect not much, but it is none the less unattractive and messy.

Incidentally, members have mentioned SF lights arriving ready-lubed with Nyogel. In my experience, new SF lights usually arrive bone dry, with no lube on them at all. Obviously, that is easily remedied with the lube of your choice; but it is a little strange IMO.

 

[fiftycalibre]

I currently use the 50/50 krytox blend, however I find that its not so effective on the threads on larger flashlights.

I find them great on smaller lights, but on my modamag collossus, I can still feel the metal grinding on metal. I believe this is due to the much higher amount of metal on metal contact, as opposed to the smaller lights. With my smaller lights, the krytox is excellent and provides nice and smooth threads and O rings.

I have ordered some nanolube, and I will be using it on the threads of all my flashlights. I will probably stick with krytox for the Orings though. Also going to use it on some of my tools :twothumbs

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I just received som Krytox 50/50 mix from nfetterly to try on Ti threads. I applied some on my Ti "PD-K" & it doesn't seem to feel any better from the Parker Super O lube I had on it previously. In fact I feel the Parker Super O lube felt better than this Krytox mix. It doesn't seem to coat the threads evenly after some twisting. It will "bead" up in clumps in areas & does not seem to cover well. Not sure if there's a considerable difference in ratio mix between this one & the mix offered from the Shoppe or what Don uses if any different. I shook the bottle pretty well just in case the two compounds seperated & reapplied but had the same results. It doesn't seem to be the same mix as what comes on Ti PDs from Don. I'll keep it on there for a few days to see if it "breaks in" but I don't see that it should need a break in period.

Just for kicks I added a couple drops of nano oil to it & it then turned into a greasier consistency & now covers well. More like a greasy mess. Maybe the bottle I have does not have enough GPL101 oil mixed in or so I feel.

Perhaps I will try some GPL226 from Tekno next and/or 50/50 from the Shoppe.

That's kind of strange that it wouldn't spread out well. The only time I've ever had that issue is when I didn't get the threads clean before applying the Krytox.

 

[ejot]

Again, I don't know enough about the specifics and hard science of all these lubes, other than my practical observations and tactile feel to say anything profoundly objective. I know I don't like Nyogel for the above listed reasons, and despite the apparent overwhelming endorsements and use by SureFire. I also know I am glad I found Nano-Oil. Perhaps if I had a thinner batch of Krytox I would like the feel better...but I'm not that motivated to mix and store custom batches of a lube when I found one that is preventing metal damage.

It's refreshing to see someone try other solutions despite already having one you're very satisfied with. Were you still interested in experimenting further with Krytox, there is one consumer-available/small quantity product that I would recommend: Finish Line Extreme Fluoro. It's marketed as a bicycle bearing grease, but it is just a relatively low-viscosity straight Krytox nearly identical to the one I use (I have tried it). I think it's also available in 15g syringe instead of 20g, if you search a bit.

Of course, I have no affiliation with the product or company. I just thought I would throw it out there, as seems thinner than the description you gave, and doesn't require any blending or home-cookin'.

And we are definitely in agreement about the drawbacks of Nyogel. :green: