EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, part 10

[Darell]

As if I had the time, I'm working on responses to ALL of the list now.

 

[Orion]

Thanks for the information, Darell. Yes, I'm sure this has been covered, but since this is "part 10", the thought of reading possibly 1,000 posts hoping to find answers would be the proverbial "needle in a haystack".

It would be nice if apartment owners or job owners offered a place for tenents/employees to recharge. That would solve my current (and hopefully temporary) situation. If I had a house, I would have no problem owning a purly electric vehicle as I rarely go on trips. And if I did, I would rent a car.

I hope that more BEVs are offered in the near future.

 

[Darell]

Excellent, Orion -

The first step is understanding the benefits and need. the second step is making them available. Making them easy to own for more poeple comes naturally.

 

[Orion]

Isn't Chevrolet coming out with a vehicle that is a hybrid, but can travel 40 miles on a charge from home? As of now, that would be a good first step, as most people could recharge each night. Even that small of a step would be great for the environment and you could still take the car on a trip with the hybrid system. Hopefully the other car makers will start offering such a hybrid with a short range all electric drive system soon. I'd be buying one.

 

[Darell]

Isn't Chevrolet coming out with a vehicle that is a hybrid, but can travel 40 miles on a charge from home? As of now, that would be a good first step, as most people could recharge each night. Even that small of a step would be great for the environment and you could still take the car on a trip with the hybrid system. Hopefully the other car makers will start offering such a hybrid with a short range all electric drive system soon. I'd be buying one.

Yes... Chevy is saying that they will produce the Volt. It is a serial hybrid, though GM calls it an EV... with a gasoline range extender. Here is that comment and response from my "EVs won't work" page.

55. GM has finally figured out what the EVs were missing to make them acceptable to the consumer: A gasoline engine. Now, 12 years after the EV1 debut, they just have to figure out how to get 40 miles of battery range.

• Just 15 years after the EV1 prototype was managing 50 miles. Just 11 years after the production EV1s with Panasonic Lead Acid batteries were managing 100 miles. And just nine years after the production EV1s with NiMH batteries were managing 150 miles, GM is about to figure out how to get 40 miles of battery range in their Volt. I wish them luck.​

 

[Roy]

I'm doing what I can....got a new car (KIA Optmia) that actually gets the milage advertised...33 mpg highway. Recently one of the gas sppliers (Valero) started putting 10% ethonol in all of their grades of gas, so I'm buying my gas there! Not a hybrid car....but what the hay!:thumbsup:

 

[Orion]

So, Darell, I believe I see what you're saying. When they have they capability of 150 miles of range, they "pat themselves on the back" at 40 miles range. Perhaps the battery pack isn't as large as a purely electric vehicle, so only 40 miles of charge is what the pack can deliver?

 

[jtr1962]

GM has finally figured out what the EVs were missing to make them acceptable to the consumer: A gasoline engine. Now, 12 years after the EV1 debut, they just have to figure out how to get 40 miles of battery range.

More like GM has finally figured out an acceptable (to them) way to produce electric cars. Add a gasoline engine to introduce needless complexity. It should break down just as often as any other car, and keep their spare parts business going. Also funny how the 150 mile range of the NiMH EV1 wasn't acceptable, but all of a sudden 40 miles is.

I can't help but think the company which finally produces a decent electric car which sells like hot cakes won't be one of the big three. It'll probably be a little upstart nobody even notices.

 

[Darell]

Orion -

Yeah, what JTR said. My point is that back in the 90's we had batter cars that could do better than 100 miles range on the battery technology of the day. Remember that this is back when cell phones were the size of carry-on bags, and laptops needed a really sturdy lap.

The car makers at the time said that 100 miles of range was not enough to satisfy most drivers. Today GM is saying that since most people drive less than 40 miles/day, that you may never have to put gas in the Volt... a car that only has 40 miles of battery range. But the kicker is that they say that the car also can't yet be built because the batteries that will give them 40 miles of range haven't been invented yet. I've driven several battery cars over the years. I can count 10 of them that had better range than the Volt proposes, and six that went over 100 miles. And every one of them was built in the 1990's.

 

[Darell]

October 24, 2007
Washington DC
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Electric Car Answers the "Call of the Grid"

Electric power customers in Washington DC may not have noticed, but they participated in the world's first public demonstration of real-time vehicle-to-grid (V2G) today. In a demonstration of V2G sponsored by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, an electric vehicle plugged in at FERC headquarters and received power dispatch commands from PJM, the regional grid operator. The commands were linked to the vehicle through a communication package developed by PHI and University of Delaware. The vehicle, an AC Propulsion eBox EV, responded to the commands by charging or discharging its battery in short bursts that helped to balance supply and demand of power on the grid.
The eBox was receiving the same power commands as major power stations throughout the region, and it responded as they did only with smaller amounts of power. V2G has been demonstrated before, but never with actual real-time commands from the grid.

The one-car demo today had no material effect on the grid, but it demonstrated how electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids may become an integral part of the electric power distribution system. When thousands of vehicles are plugged in for charging, they can, at the same time, serve as a "battery on the grid" rapidly buffering supply and demand to help improve the reliability and efficiency of grid operation. Their combined buffering effect can also help reduce greenhouse gas emissions by better utilizing solar and wind energy generation that can vary from minute to minute and hour to hour.
The benefits of V2G for the grid are compelling, but drivers get something too. PJM pays millions of dollars to generating stations for their help in balancing the grid. Once vehicles assume that role on a significant scale, their drivers will get paid too. That is why FERC Commissioner Jon Wellinghoff likes to call the cars CashBack Vehicles – plug them in and get cash back.

 

[BB]

I don't think I have seen this posted here... A new Lead Acid battery technology using foamed lead/carbon-graphite plates founded by a large company (Caterpillar Tractor). Looks really interesting:

Firefly Energy

From one of their FAQ':

What is the most important aspect of Firefly's new technology?

The "key" to Firefly's technology is the substitution of lightweight carbon-graphite foam for much of the lead metal grids found in a conventional lead acid battery. The carbon-graphite foam grids have substantial advantages that directly address conventional battery shortcomings, or, as we prefer to call them, "performance bottlenecks". The carbon-graphite foam is much lighter than traditional lead grid material, it allows for greater electron flow from the battery's chemistry, and is highly resistant to sulfation, which is a common lead acid battery failure mode. Another benefit is much lighter weight and proportionately greater energy density.

PDF White Paper (PDF file)

One company (snowmobile mfg?) should be shipping in their product in late 2007... General retail--+2 years???

-Bill

 

[Darell]

Firefly is for real, and they're making a go of it for sure. But... as is usual, this great technology still isn't commercialized yet. And as usual, we wait and hope and see...

 

[rodfran]

To jtr1962: I agree with you on the Volt gas engine adding unecessary complexity. I think many on this forum are waiting for an AFFORDABLE electric vehicle that is not a glorified golf cart.

To Roy: Do you mind telling me how much you paid for the Kia in round numbers? And did the car have a good warranty? Some day I will have to look for look for another family car. My wife currently drives a 1986 Buick Century with a 4 cylinder(21 mpg). We paid $500 for it used, many years ago. I am still trying to get used to new price sticker shock nowadays!

I don't know if I can wait forever for one of these "maybe" pure electrics in the future.

They will probably be out of my (and most peoples) price range anyway.

I personally ride a bus to and from work for $10 a month. So it is really hard for me to justify spending $20 grand for a car, whether it is pure electric, hybrid, or whatever.
Whatever I buy, will probably have to be "pre-owned" as they call them now.

 

[Roy]

The KIAs have a 100K warrenty! After tradeit and rebatess, it cost be around $16,000! If you're looking for a cheap car for in town use, KIA has a slew of models at less than $16000. My Optmia is the second largest 4 door
sedan in their line up. Mine has the 2.4L 4 cylinder motor which gives me aound 26 mpg in town and 30-33 mpg on the highway.

Go find a KIA dealer and take a look. They are overlooked and give (my opinion) good value.

 

[BentHeadTX]

With EV, I have to walk before I can run.
I ride my daily 13.2 mile round trip on my recumbent bicycle and it works very well. Not a hard thing to do in flat Florida. In 2009, I'll move again but to mountains in the Ozarks as I finally put down roots. (can't wait!)
Messed around with electric scooters and electric bicycles when I lived in Turkey and learned many things. The main thing I learned was SLA AGM cells are way to heavy, have a short range and go out of balance quickly. I think I'll use the 48V 35A brushless motor and controller for a small lawnmower or something.
My Charger electric bike will be heavily modified from a pedal assist SLA battery beast to a throttle controlled LiFePO4 powered bike. The brushless motor runs through a Shimano 7-speed internally geared hub and I like the design. It is the battery thing that I am concerned about.
My plan is to use a 24V 30 or 35 amp controller for the motor and a throttle. A company called PHET makes 13.8 and 27.6V batteries that look like car batteries. They have a battery management system inside that keeps the cells balanced. Not sure of the Ah rating but I know they do make 36 Ah cells and they can handle a huge discharge rate without dropping the voltage.
Using the 35 amp controller option, I calculate a top speed of 30+ MPH in 6th gear with the 27.6V 36 Ah pack. My point is to keep the max discharge on the pack at 1C or less so the pack will last me 10 years. If I blow the Shimano 7-speed internal hub, it will be replaced with a Fallbrook Technologies CVT-P variable rear hub.
The main thing is the LiFePO4 battery pack. My hope is to pick up the 13.8V 36 Ah "automotive" batteries for about $300 each. Maybe I should pray but really hope they will hit that price in 2008 as capacity continously ramps up.
For now, I pedal away and look to the future of my electrically assisted bike. 2008 or 2009? It all depends on the battery prices of LiFePO4.

 

[Orion]

So, what do you all suppose would happen if a LOT of people started owning pure electric vehicles, recharging them everyday, or every other day, . . . .when it seems like (especially in the summer time) in large cities, power consumption is up so much, they do "rolling blackouts". If people are also placing electric vehicle charging on the electric grid, would that mean that such cities would have even more problems, perhaps even more times per year?

 

[rodfran]

Thanks for the feedback, Roy!

Also thanks to you, BentHeadTX for keeping us up to date with the latest in battery electric bikes.
Excellent info!

 

[Darell]

So, what do you all suppose would happen if a LOT of people started owning pure electric vehicles, recharging them everyday, or every other day, . . . .when it seems like (especially in the summer time) in large cities, power consumption is up so much, they do "rolling blackouts". If people are also placing electric vehicle charging on the electric grid, would that mean that such cities would have even more problems, perhaps even more times per year?

Another common question... And it is currently #37 on my "EV's Won't Work Because..." page.

1. The oil industry is the single largest consumer and purchaser of electricity. The gasoline cars running around today are responsible for about as much electricity per mile as my EV consumes... though my EV doesn't then need to go on and burn the gasoline. Let me say that again: Gasoline cars use as much electricity (and infinitely more gasoline) as EVs.
2. New homes/pools/AC units are more of an issue than EVs. Homes use the energy during peak times consistently. This is what CREATES the peaks, of course. EVs will typically (no, not always, but mostly) be charged during off-peak times while it is parked over night. Put some real conservation measures in place for homes and businesses, and we solve many problems while creating jobs and saving money.
3. The grid currently has enough excess off-peak capacity to charge untold millions of cars. Using off-peak capapcity is the single best way to make existing plants more efficient. A more level load helps everybody (except that overall power plant pollution will increase, even though pollution per unit of energy created will go down).
4. Vehicle to Grid demonstrations are on-going. In a perfect world where we're all driving EVs, we plug them in wherever we park... and when the utility needs extra power at some location, it sips a tiny bit from thousands of EVs to cover the peak *locally*. When the peak has passed, the cars are refilled. In this way EVs can decrease the occurrances of rolling blackouts by being plugged in. It has been demonstrated (remotely controlled from a power plant) and it works. EVs can be our peak shavers. And if you have an EV plugged in at home and you DO have a rolling blackout... your house will still be lit as you power your home from you car.
5. Solve the problem by installing PV panels, and making your own fuel for your EV. And if you want to make a bigger difference, install enough PV to cover the home usage as well. Berkeley is just about to pass a landmark Solar initiative where homeowners will barely be able to afford NOT to put up solar. There will be no up-front cost, just an extra property tax assessmement that will be equal to or LESS than the power bill that they were be off-setting. After 20 years, the assessment goes away, and the solar system is owned by the homeowner. This isn't difficult! It just needs to be implemented by communities (countries?) that care.

 

[Orion]

Very good, then, Darell.

I'll be on board when they realize that "it's time".

 

[Darell]

Very good, then, Darell.

I'll be on board when they realize that "it's time".

Best thing to do at this point is to let "them" know that it is TIME. The automakers keep telling us that they only build what we want. They also tell us that we don't want EVs. The trick here, is to catch them with their pants down.

Like with quotes such as these:
http://evnut.com/quotes_ev.htm

Remember in those EV comments by GM, that GM is now calling the Volt an EV. A 40-mile battery range EV that will often never need gas since so few people commute more than 40 miles in a day.

Oh... and they'll never take the cars away from willing customers. :sigh: