I heard the limited group buy runs such as the 219C high noon or 3 o'clock high are actually more than the specified 200 lumens. Is it true? And if so, what are they tuned to exactly? How about the newest batch of lights with the sw45k that just shipped?
HDS Systems question
- Thread starter CREEXHP70LED
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
They are all tuned to 200, but the higher the k more efficient the emitters seemed to be.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 508
The HDS 325 to me was visual comparable to two other flashlights that claim to be over 450 lumens.
The claimed lumens of some lights can be deceiving. Some manufacturers quote the LED lumens instead of the OTF/FL-1 lumens (what you see and what HDS is), which can easily be over 100 lumens less. Also, with some lights the quoted max is only available if using a rechargeable and only for a few minutes tops before the light automatically steps down to a lower level.
The claimed lumens of some lights can be deceiving. Some manufacturers quote the LED lumens instead of the OTF/FL-1 lumens (what you see and what HDS is), which can easily be over 100 lumens less. Also, with some lights the quoted max is only available if using a rechargeable and only for a few minutes tops before the light automatically steps down to a lower level.
Last edited:
jon_slider
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 5,164
Do you think that is partly because the HDS reflector is deeper than those two lights, and makes a more concentrated beam and tighter hotspot?
Im looking forward to finding out for myself.
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
One reason is that the FL-1 standard isn't exactly what most people think it is. It is heavily gamed.
First, it is only necessary for a company to test 3 "representative" lights for it. These can be cherry picked by the company, so what is advertised as a 1000 lumen light is going to vary considerably in output and runtime.
Second... well, watch the video by Elzeta here
The FL1 standard was first proposed by Brad Penny (president of Streamlight) at SHOT Show in 2003. HDS wrote a paper proposing what to use from 2003-2005 and sent it out. "Proposed Standards for Measuring Flashlight Output" The National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) which was/is a committee consisting of a bunch of flashlight manufacturers (see below) proposed the FL1 standard to ANSI.
Who made the FL1?
Dorcy International
Princeton Tec
Coast
Surefire, LLC
Golight
Petzl
The Brinkman Corporation
Energizer Holdings
ASP Inc.
Streamlight, Inc.
Cat Eye Co., Inc.
Black Diamond
The Coleman Company Inc.
Duracell, Inc.
First, it is only necessary for a company to test 3 "representative" lights for it. These can be cherry picked by the company, so what is advertised as a 1000 lumen light is going to vary considerably in output and runtime.
Second... well, watch the video by Elzeta here
The FL1 standard was first proposed by Brad Penny (president of Streamlight) at SHOT Show in 2003. HDS wrote a paper proposing what to use from 2003-2005 and sent it out. "Proposed Standards for Measuring Flashlight Output" The National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) which was/is a committee consisting of a bunch of flashlight manufacturers (see below) proposed the FL1 standard to ANSI.
Who made the FL1?
Dorcy International
Princeton Tec
Coast
Surefire, LLC
Golight
Petzl
The Brinkman Corporation
Energizer Holdings
ASP Inc.
Streamlight, Inc.
Cat Eye Co., Inc.
Black Diamond
The Coleman Company Inc.
Duracell, Inc.
Lots of lying manufacturers out there, and some reviewers help substantiate/perpetuate those claims with their own exaggerated lumen scales (often calibrated from the lying manufacturers, and/or before ANSI adoption). This thread might shed some light, and one of the lights discussed in it has been reviewed here and can be triangulated.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-about-the-lumen-flux&highlight=manufacturers
I've been using a BLF plumbing style light box and calibrate to several reviewers that have access to laboratory equipment and they seem quite consistent, along with certain honest manufacturers (HDS included). Personally, I could care less about max lumen specs being off (other than to determine manufacturer integrity) but am quite particular about having accurate low lumen specs, as I seek that just-right level of night vision for different tasks.
jon_slider
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 5,164
thanks for the info
I also use a homebrew light box
I find the specs from my Olights are pretty accurate
Ive never had a Zebra, the link you gave claimed a 900 lumen spec was actually 345 lumens, ouch!
this is a separate subject from ANSII and FL1, which are about runtimes to 10%
the question I was asking was only about beam shape affecting perceived brightness. That is, a smaller hotspot from a deeper reflector will look brighter than a wide hotspot from a shallower reflector.
In the case of HDS, Im looking forward to the passaround, as it will give me another crosscheck on the calibration of my lightbox.
Note that although the 325 HDS is brighter on the sphere, than a 250 hds, the difference in LED size makes the 250 model seem brighter in use, because it throws farther, according to usdiver's field reports.. throw, lumens, specs, hotspot size, oh my!
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 508
Understand my statement was not scientific like those who actually take measurements using various equipment, it was based on my eyes in some of the environments I use my lights. I think it is a combination of a few things.
At least with one, the difference may be what I mentioned between LED lumens and OTF lumens. The light was advertised as 450 lumens, but then when you look closer at the technical specs, the advertised is based on LED lumens and the OTF lumen is 330, which in reality makes it only 5 lumen more than the HDS 325.
With the other light, I'm not really sure the cause but I think there could be multiple factors. If just shining on a wall, the other light is brighter. But when taken outside and used at about 7-20yds, there was not much visual difference.
- The light is one where the higher lumens are based off using a 16340. When comparing the light had a 16340, but it had been used a little since charging.
- Both flashlights had already been being used for a couple minutes, before I decided to compare, so internal temperature protection may have already ramped down the one.
- I did the comparison in my backyard which is more a suburban area, so there is so light pollution and the perceived difference may have been different if in the middle of nowhere in complete darkness.
- The reflector and beam pattern is was not drastically different, but that could have still played a role.
I hopes this helps.
Last edited:
jon_slider
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 5,164
yes, thank you
one of the wildest, most unreliable lumen spec info I find is in regard to Maratac Flashlights.. even beyond the OTF vs LED lumens differences.. Muyshondt also has some weird numbers...
the benefit of owning a lightbox is that I can compare my lights to each other, then at least I know where they stand relative to each other...
by using a lightbox, I can catch differences in brightness that are very difficult to notice otherwise, as per HDS logarithmic nature of vision info.. in which he sets each step up in brightness to be 50% brighter than the one below.. That sounds like a big jump, but in practice, its not that big.. our eyes are nowhere near as calibrated as an HDS.. eyes tolerate a very wide range of variation in not only lumens, but also tint. Our brain is constantly adjusting the image data our eyes are transmitting.
The lightbox also helps me learn what lumen levels I am enjoying and choosing to use most, in various settings.
One of the reasons Im excited about trying in the HDS passaround is to learn what lumen levels I tend to prefer, for example when I walk through the house at the end of the night with the lights off, vs, the level I find convenient during the day, indoors, and the level I like to worship the porcelain gods in the dark of night.. etc
Im going to be able to read the HDS calibration levels, and compare them to my lightbox.. Then I will be able to figure out if some of my other lights have modes close to the ones the HDS showed me I like..
its going to be flashy fun!
Im also excited about the HDS passaround having an XPG high CRI.. I have one of those LEDs in a different light, and it is a personal favorite..
Last edited:
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
yes, thank you
one of the wildest, most unreliable lumen spec info I find is in regard to Maratac Flashlights.. even beyond the OTF vs LED lumens differences.. Muyshondt also has some weird numbers...
the benefit of owning a lightbox is that I can compare my lights to each other, then at least I know where they stand relative to each other...
by using a lightbox, I can catch differences in brightness that are very difficult to notice otherwise, as per HDS logarithmic nature of vision info.. in which he sets each step up in brightness to be 50% brighter than the one below.. That sounds like a big jump, but in practice, its not that big.. our eyes are nowhere near as calibrated as an HDS.. eyes tolerate a very wide range of variation in not only lumens, but also tint. Our brain is constantly adjusting the image data our eyes are transmitting.
The lightbox also helps me learn what lumen levels I am enjoying and choosing to use most, in various settings.
One of the reasons Im excited about trying in the HDS passaround is to learn what lumen levels I tend to prefer, for example when I walk through the house at the end of the night with the lights off, vs, the level I find convenient during the day, indoors, and the level I like to worship the porcelain gods in the dark of night.. etc
Im going to be able to read the HDS calibration levels, and compare them to my lightbox.. Then I will be able to figure out if some of my other lights have modes close to the ones the HDS showed me I like..
its going to be flashy fun!
Im also excited about the HDS passaround having an XPG high CRI.. I have one of those LEDs in a different light, and it is a personal favorite..
While the pass around light is an XPG, it is not a hiCRI.
jon_slider
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 5,164
thanks for taking the time to help me be accurate
and I acknowledge that the pass around is not a Tint test a Round its a chance to feel the ergonomics, beam, and UI of the Light Body itself..
looking forward, especially because its a Rotary
To me, 900 vs 345 is not meaningful without knowing the light/manufacturer - could have been any cheap fleabay or box store light which we know are BS. More telling to me was that the SWM C20C testing accurately with laboratory equip, yet the same light was considered at least 1/3rd understated (at max and stepdown) by a popular reviewer here.... which of course means all those lights that reviewer thought were spec'd accurately, are probably not. One could argue sample variation of course - but IMHO, the 1/3-off thing has been pretty consistent.
Yes, I know you were originally referring to flood vs throw beams and the lux of the latter feels 'brighter' to most folks.
FWIW, I would just calibrate off the HDS at max and min.... I think Hogo has mentioned these are the two points Henry does individually calibrate each light a sphere (and I think they are good calibrations).
Last edited:
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
The 5 highest levels and the lowest level are calibrated, so one can use the top 5 as a good base along with the lowest.
OK thanks.... so where would I get the lumen spec for those other calibrated levels? is there a numeric lumen chart (other than trying to interpolate the line graph in the Adv. Manual)? Or just take 325 and divide by 1.5, then divide by 1.5 again, etc.?
tech25
Flashlight Enthusiast
In the HDS inc. group on Facebook, Hogo posted a chart, I can't post on the forums from my phone right now but maybe someone else could.
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hogokansatsukan
Flashlight Enthusiast
And perhaps a mod with the superpower could move this thread to the HDS sub forum... Thanks!
archimedes
Flashaholic
At least the early editions of the User's Guide have the exact lumens listed for each level ....
What is interesting about that posted chart is that whatever the lumen output is at the highest level, it isn't a pure 1.5 difference in the next level like everyone has long assumed. And that goes as well when going up from the lowest level to the highest....
