I lived my entire life without debt

Poppy

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monochrome, I didn't bother to read your whole rant, but I googled female combat vets in ukraine and in seconds got this response.

There are approximately 60,000 women serving in Ukraine's armed forces, of which 5,000 are on the frontline.Aug 5, 2023

So I call B/S to your rant.
 

jtr1962

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Wow!
Can you be more negative?

I'm sorry for you that life sucks so badly.
He's just being realistic. I've seen everything he has with regard to relationships. For every happily married until death do us apart relationship, there are probably 10 lousy ones. Half of those end in divorce. The rest might stay together like my parents did, but make the home a perpetual war zone. There was one time my father even talked about painting a line in the middle of the house for his half and her half. Unfortunately we only have one bathroom. The logistics wouldn't have worked out.

As for women on the front line, other countries are a lot smarter about this than the US. Monocrom was referring to the US.
 

idleprocess

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We're hilariously OT here. But hey.

You can easily find someone who shares your values. Doesn't mean they won't cheat, or decide they can do better and leave you anyway. You get zero guarantees regarding how another human-being with their own working brain will behave in the future. You get to control you, not your spouse. They decide they can do better? They're gone! With Society encouraging their decision.
The market approach to relationships has its ups and downs and is a foible that men and women alike partake in. Probably related to that old saw along the lines of:
A man falls in love with a woman believing that she will never change, but she will
A woman falls in love with a man believing that he will change, but he will not


As for the rest of your post there are some reasonable critiques, but on balance it's gender war mutterings and there are similar mutterings from the other perspective thus not very interesting.
 

jtr1962

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50% of all marriages end in divorce is a falsehood. It's akin to - women make 70 cents for every dollar men make. If you believe that nonsense it's only because you want to.

Divorce rates are down somewhat, but the reason is because more people aren't getting married in the first place, not because more marriages are working out.

IMO, the idea of staying together with one person for your entire life never made much sense. People change. What you liked at 20 might not be what you like at 30 or 40 or 50. Then there's the fact most people just aren't inherently monogamous. They see something better than what they have, they're going to cheat if they get the chance. I'm not even sure cheating is a fair term. They're just doing what's biologically ingrained in their genes, which is to spread their DNA over as many partners as possible in order to better ensure survival of the species. Both my parents cheated. So did nearly every married couple I've known. A former friend of mine, who was single, had an ongoing thing with a former girlfriend who was married with two children. My former brother-in-law walked out on my sister, but this was after he had been cheating a while. And so it goes. You know the old saying-"To wives and sweethearts, may they never meet."
 

Lights and Guns

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Also everyone has grown up in different household / circumstances.
I would never advocate for everyone to have children, I think the opposite. I think you should be financially stable, and mature enough to actually be ready to be there and put your children before yourself. You need to understand what selflessness means before you even think about having children. Because to be a good parent, that's what you need to be a lot of the time.

Luckily for me I was able to grow up in an extremely loving and supportive environment. Both my parents wanted nothing but the best for me, and were both there every step of the way for me and my siblings. Even though I am a grown man today, they still worry about me.
Obviously It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time, thats just unrealistic but overall I had a great upbringing.

That is what I was exposed to as a child, a tight bond between my folks, caring and loving ... the family and god before all else. Today I carry that same thing with me, both in my head and in my heart.

I can completely understand why others who were not as fortunate to live in such a household growing up would be more opposed to the idea of marriage / kids ect. I totally understand, and honestly it makes sense. I bet my experiences are what made me look to get married. For some it would be the other way around.

Like somebody said above... one thing isn't "right" or "wrong" ... I think everybody has their own path in life and different strokes for different folks is a real thing! -- Not everyone should have kids, nor should they feel like they are missing out on anything. As long as you live a good healthy long and fulfilling life doing whatever makes you tick...I say thats a life well lived!

Lastly, I would agree the world is upside down right now, especially in the USA. The USA is quite unrecognizable (unfortunately). Over the past 5 years in particular it has gotten VERY BAD. With that said, my only hope is that the right person gets voted into office next year and they can get this country back on track. The left have literally destroyed what was once a great nation. The most recent issue (migration) and open borders is ludicrous and needs to be fixed, FAST.
 

Fuzzywuzzies

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Aug 18, 2019
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181
Wow.
Digging down into marriage, children, and finances / debt in one thread! I'm surprised this isn't nuclear yet!

My father warned me "The biggest arguments in marriage are over children and money. Figure your strategies carefully. And whatever you do, don't let any one , ruin any of the others."

He's right. As usual.

My view on the above, in a word, is; get married, because it's good for your soul, and hers. Have children, because it knocks the selfishness out of you - and them. And avoid debt at *almost* any cost.
(That's over-simplified, PM me if you really want my in-depth philosophy on this!!)

And last but not least, if you have already missed doing any of these, don't stress. You picked a different path, for better or worse - for goodness' sake don't whinge or skite about it. Make the best of your situation, for your benefit and for others.

Plant today, while it is called "today". Even if you don't harvest, at least another may.
 

jtr1962

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Also everyone has grown up in different household / circumstances.
I would never advocate for everyone to have children, I think the opposite. I think you should be financially stable, and mature enough to actually be ready to be there and put your children before yourself. You need to understand what selflessness means before you even think about having children. Because to be a good parent, that's what you need to be a lot of the time.
In today's world where more and more people can't even support themselves, not having children is the only logical decision. Even if you have the money, the key is you have to want it. Same thing with marriage. If this is something you really want to do, you'll try to make it work. Unfortunately, way too many people get married because of societal pressure to do so. Far too many have children because their parents want grandchildren, not because it's what they want to do.
I can completely understand why others who were not as fortunate to live in such a household growing up would be more opposed to the idea of marriage / kids ect. I totally understand, and honestly it makes sense. I bet my experiences are what made me look to get married. For some it would be the other way around.
It's not just the environment you grew up in. Sure, to some extent that colored my thinking. It's also a fact for some people there just isn't much out there. I only liked two girls in high school. This in a school with about 3,000 students (Bronx Science). One I couldn't get interested in me at all. The other was, or at least seemed to be, but unfortunately at the time I was still pursuing the first girl. Later on when I got interested in her, she seemed bitter that I was only interested in her as a friend, and it never worked out. In college I didn't meet anybody. Once you're out of school meeting people is exponentially harder.

I wasn't completely closed off to the idea of marriage, despite my parents' lousy marriage. I just was unable to hook up with anyone I liked enough that it may have led to that. The alternative was settling for whatever I could get, which I would never do.
Like somebody said above... one thing isn't "right" or "wrong" ... I think everybody has their own path in life and different strokes for different folks is a real thing! -- Not everyone should have kids, nor should they feel like they are missing out on anything. As long as you live a good healthy long and fulfilling life doing whatever makes you tick...I say thats a life well lived!
I never had any regret about not having children, nor felt I missed out on anything. Some regrets about not being married, or at least not being in a few long-term relationships, but in the end that was beyond my control.
The left have literally destroyed what was once a great nation. The most recent issue (migration) and open borders is ludicrous and needs to be fixed, FAST.
Agree about the migration but I'm 60 years old and never remember this country being great. My parents (born in 1934 and 1939) were the last generation where the majority had a great shot at upward mobility. Even people with a HS diploma could raise a family on one salary, and buy a house. Those days are long gone. They started disappearing by the mid 1970s. By the 1980s policies were firmly in place worldwide, not just in the US, which increased the inequality of wealth. Both parties in this country were complicit.
My view on the above, in a word, is; get married, because it's good for your soul, and hers. Have children, because it knocks the selfishness out of you - and them. And avoid debt at *almost* any cost.
(That's over-simplified, PM me if you really want my in-depth philosophy on this!!)
Keep in mind easier said than done. Marriage implies you meet the right person. Sheer luck has a lot to do with it. It also implies you either have the ability/luck to earn a decent living, or you're born into, or marry into, money. Children requires all of this, plus the ability to raise them well, and the desire to have them in the first place. If any of those pieces are missing, don't bother. You'll be doing any potential children a disservice.
And last but not least, if you have already missed doing any of these, don't stress. You picked a different path, for better or worse - for goodness' sake don't whinge or skite about it. Make the best of your situation, for your benefit and for others.
That's what's refreshing about millennials and gen Z. They're the first generation to realize there are many other paths besides marriage and children. I think in the long run this will make for a happier, healthier population. I think a lot of the miserable adults we come across are that way because they had parents who didn't really want them, or were ill-equipped to provide for them materially and emotionally.
 

bykfixer

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I'm glad I was blessed with kids. Yeah it's got it's sacrifices, but well worth it, at least to me. And regarding debt, we're a cash and carry family. Don't care what the Jones's have, don't want what the Jones's have. I have a home, food in the cupboard and a job. That's way better than a very large slice of the population of planet earth.

As a bonus I'm happily married.

I had a down time. It lasted nearly a decade. I was set up to retire at 45 and well on my way to that goal until it all fell apart in just a few weeks and I had to start from scratch at nearly 40. Nothing I could do to stop it. I watched dishonorable people share the spoils of my efforts. Let 'em have it. Hope they choke on it. One by one they did too.

I found myself in a bad place surrounded with losers in a bucket of p!ss. While those in the bucket of p!ss around were wallowing in their misery and making excuses and staing trapped, I was climbing out of the bucket one slippery step at a time. See, once upon a time I had a coworker who had seen a really dark period in his life, but unless he told you the story you'd never know. My goal was to be like that guy.

Not going to make this about religion yet at one point I sought a higher power. That higher power words can't explain looked on me with favor, even when I shot myself in the foot. I was allowed to make my own mistakes. Like a gps app keeps guiding your direction, even when you screw up and make a right where it shoulda been a left it patiently kept directing me towards the goal. Eventually I let go of the steering wheel and let the higher power take over. It was scarey at first.

One day I stopped and looked around my circumstances and realized not only was I no longer in the bucket of p!ss, I couldn't even see it off in the distance. I'm still seeking the goal but the path these days is much less perilous.

Play the breaks...
 
Last edited:

Monocrom

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As for the rest of your post there are some reasonable critiques, but on balance it's gender war mutterings and there are similar mutterings from the other perspective thus not very interesting.
On balance? Really..... All that tells me is, you absolutely disagree with certain points I brought up regarding the blatant bias in how men and women are treated so ridiculously differently. With the absolute moronic double standard that exists, solely based on which private parts an individual is born with. However, you have no intellectual rebuttal to what I brought up. What to do in a situation like that? Well, one tactic that works is to pretend that the person you disagree with is being racist, or bullying, or elitist, or (just for example) engaging in gender war mutterings.

By doing so, you try to dismiss their point of view as being silly, ridiculous nonsense that isn't worth a thoughtful and intelligent rebuttal. Now in fairness, that tactic is incredibly effective in a staggering number of settings! Formal debate, College campus, one-on-one conversation, on an internet forum, etc. Absolutely effective!

Unless the person you're doing it to recognizes it, and calls you out on it. Like I just did. Then, yeah; completely loses its effectiveness. I'll even go so fas as to say, we've both been on CPF a very long time. Encountered and responded to each others' posts literally countless times. I'm genuinely surprised and saddened that you would resort to that type of tactic. Disagreement is one thing. But to use that tactic when you couldn't come up with a good rebuttal..... That's as far as I'll go with this reply.
 

Monocrom

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Also everyone has grown up in different household / circumstances.
I would never advocate for everyone to have children, I think the opposite. I think you should be financially stable, and mature enough to actually be ready to be there and put your children before yourself. You need to understand what selflessness means before you even think about having children. Because to be a good parent, that's what you need to be a lot of the time.

Luckily for me I was able to grow up in an extremely loving and supportive environment. Both my parents wanted nothing but the best for me, and were both there every step of the way for me and my siblings. Even though I am a grown man today, they still worry about me.
Obviously It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time, thats just unrealistic but overall I had a great upbringing.

That is what I was exposed to as a child, a tight bond between my folks, caring and loving ... the family and god before all else. Today I carry that same thing with me, both in my head and in my heart.

I can completely understand why others who were not as fortunate to live in such a household growing up would be more opposed to the idea of marriage / kids ect. I totally understand, and honestly it makes sense. I bet my experiences are what made me look to get married. For some it would be the other way around.

Like somebody said above... one thing isn't "right" or "wrong" ... I think everybody has their own path in life and different strokes for different folks is a real thing! -- Not everyone should have kids, nor should they feel like they are missing out on anything. As long as you live a good healthy long and fulfilling life doing whatever makes you tick...I say thats a life well lived!

Lastly, I would agree the world is upside down right now, especially in the USA. The USA is quite unrecognizable (unfortunately). Over the past 5 years in particular it has gotten VERY BAD. With that said, my only hope is that the right person gets voted into office next year and they can get this country back on track. The left have literally destroyed what was once a great nation. The most recent issue (migration) and open borders is ludicrous and needs to be fixed, FAST.
Honestly, you brought up some excellent points. I appreciate the thoughtful response, and clarification.
 

PhotonMaster3

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Aug 9, 2020
Messages
103
Rent is always dead money, a house loan permits for the building of assets and as you have to pay rent anyway why not pay off YOUR loan and not your landlords, additional to which equity loans are a cheaper rate (than comparable loans) and loan redraw is even better for urgently required purchases (like a replacement vehicle), doing so keeps your repayments to one entity.

The biggest "speedhump" to this approach is inequitable divorce laws.

I too avoid CCs and thus have a poor credit rating (but no defaults), go figure? 🤣
Haha equitable divorce. We'll have cold fusion powered 100 million lumen flashlights and cheap flying cars before that happens :)

(Speaking from painful experience)
 

bykfixer

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50% of all marriages end in divorce is a falsehood. It's akin to - women make 70 cents for every dollar men make. If you believe that nonsense it's only because you want to.
If they factor in every marriage by hollyweird folks no wonder it appears so high.

One year in grade school my step son told his teacher his grandpa died. The teacher said "that's the third one this year, how can that be?" The boy said "my grandma has been married 4 times so far, after this it may be 5"........
 

Monocrom

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If they factor in every marriage by hollyweird folks no wonder it appears so high.

One year in grade school my step son told his teacher his grandpa died. The teacher said "that's the third one this year, how can that be?" The boy said "my grandma has been married 4 times so far, after this it may be 5"........
Don't know why.... But that's literally one of the saddest things I've ever read on CPF. :(
 
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