I lived my entire life without debt

[jtr1962]

Buddy you've got some weird takes on some poop but saying that working doesn't help teenagers might take the cake.

It might help the aimless ones who would otherwise be sitting around smoking pot all day. That assumes of course they could even hold down the job. For most, unless you plan a career in fast food or grocery, you're not learning much of value from the work itself. It's just a way to earn money to buy stuff you want. Nothing more. If you're going to school, you already know how get up and be on time, so the job isn't teaching you that, either.

I stand by what I said that it builds far more character and real-world preparation to just learn to do without. That's the reality in the adult world. Most of us get very little that we want. I remember reading all the stories of people going crazy during lockdown, not buying stuff, not going out. For me it wasn't that different than before. I didn't like it, either, but I coped a heck of lot better than most. Another advantage of learning to do without is once you actually start making money you end up saving a lot of it. Then you get to retire way earlier than most. And retire on less since you're used to living simply.

I can honestly say I've never in my life heard somebody say that work is detrimental to the growth and development of a young person. Holy wow. I seriously can not believe I read that.

No, school work and learning has lots of value in those areas. Stuff like internships in fields you're interested in certainly have value but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about working in Mickey Ds for minimum wage flipping burgers. Doing a stupid, repetitive, boring job like that only has value for the paycheck.

I mean I guess they aren't necessarily odd to you but wow. Interfere with studies??

Am I totally off on this? I literally worked 2 real scheduled jobs and worked on the side all through school and had no problems. I was in Whos Who, fccla, beta club, it really wasn't hard. It was enjoyable.

Buy stuff I didn't need? Brother I bought food for my family.

It's great if you worked to help buy food for your family. That's really commendable. But most of the kids I knew who worked blew the money on crap. That includes my brother.

I spent 3 hours a day just getting to/from school. I already told you my schedule. I literally had no time even to get enough sleep. Bronx Science. One of the three hardest specialized high schools in NYC. Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech are the other two. Grades in school are NOT linear with effort. It probably takes 5 times as much study to end up with a 96 average, as opposed to a 90 average. The former is really needed, along with high SAT scores, to get into one of the top colleges.

Now you are seeing the mind of a coastal liberal. They actually believe this nonsense, and vote accordingly. It makes little sense to those of us who want as little as possible from government. I'm sooo happy they are getting more and more illegal immigrants shoved down their throats. Even still the small relative number being sent to NYC for example is NOTHING compared to how many many towns in Texas have had to deal with. There needs to be at least 10 times the amount sent to NYC for starters.

Liberal? Horsesh*t. I'm in the middle politically. I don't even vote any more. Don't assume I like everything the left does. I don't. You're right about a lot of stuff, but you're also wrong about a lot. The same people who claim to want as little as possible from government sure are happy when government does stuff they like. Practice what you preach and stop using anything government had a hand in. Stop driving for starters. Government built those roads. Don't use the grid. Don't use the Internet. Get a plot of land in the middle of nowhere, grow or hunt all your own food, sew your own clothes, use animal fat to make candles for light, burn wood for heat. That's life with as little as possible from government.

I don't even know how to address your joy over what's happening now in the big cities. That's base Neaderthal stuff, it really is, reveling in other people's suffering.

 

[turbodog]

...

One of the worst aspects of required minimum wages is that the worst workers end up getting paid far more than they're worth, and I think we've all had our share of working with them.

You're not thinking this through fully.

So you want the least skilled, least productive to NOT make enough to survive, to make it NOT worth their while to work?

So, ask yourself, what are they going to do then? You think that's gonna be a net positive for them and society?

I've got ~600 clients in the metro/surrounding areas, with anywhere from 1-2 employees to ~400. There's always dead weight. You just deal with it, pay them, and go on. If you fire them, make them quit, the replacement will be more of the same... then you've got to pay for training/onboarding again.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Liberal? Horsesh*t. I'm in the middle politically. I don't even vote any more. Don't assume I like everything the left does. I don't. You're right about a lot of stuff, but you're also wrong about a lot. The same people who claim to want as little as possible from government sure are happy when government does stuff they like. Practice what you preach and stop using anything government had a hand in. Stop driving for starters. Government built those roads. Don't use the grid. Don't use the Internet. Get a plot of land in the middle of nowhere, grow or hunt all your own food, sew your own clothes, use animal fat to make candles for light, burn wood for heat. That's life with as little as possible from government.

I didn't say no government. Please read what I actually said. There are very very few things that are worthwhile done by the government. Most of the infrastructure and building of the country was done by capitalists like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Vanderbilt, Guggenheim, etc.

Yes you are a liberal in sheep's clothing whose words bely being in the middle on most issues you post about here. Your posts reek of socialist handout propaganda, including believing that it is an obligation that people are mandated to have what you consider a living wage, student debt forgiveness, and a myriad of other programs to help unfortunate people and a need to mandate/regulate actions such as using existing oil & gas supplies to have the country prosper again.

I don't even know how to address your joy over what's happening now in the big cities. That's base Neaderthal stuff, it really is, reveling in other people's suffering.

That's because you don't realize that the liberal party and current administration policies you have supported in your posts here have been following their beliefs, including open borders with untold terrorists already finding their way in. Senate hearings today revealed that this administration and the support given by liberal states with their sanctuary city/state do gooder policies actually believes the border is secure....that's what they said in the face of fat least 10 million illegals since Biden took office. It is almost guaranteed we will have another series of terrorist attacks because of these policies, and the draw of sanctuary cities/states and open borders.

This is what your people wanted, so they should get at least 10 times more illegals so it equals the per capita flooding into Texas towns like El Paso who northern liberals didn't give two shits about until they showed up in their dysfunctional cities. Then perhaps they will learn how badly they have ****ed up this country in 3 short years.

 

[jtr1962]

I didn't say no government. Please read what I actually said. There are very very few things that are worthwhile done by the government. Most of the infrastructure and building of the country was done by capitalists like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Vanderbilt, Guggenheim, etc.

You mean like the Interstate Highway System?

In June 1956, Eisenhower signed the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 into law. Under the act, the federal government would pay for 90 percent of the cost of construction of Interstate Highways.

Stop looking at stuff we did over a century ago, then holding it up as examples of your capitalist utopia. Those capitalists of old didn't have the next quarter mentality of CEOs today. Big stuff with a long payback period just doesn't get built under today's brand of capitalism. Heck, the freight railroads could increase their profits in the long term by electrifying. Why won't they do it? High upfront costs which will result in years in the red before the benefits are realized. No CEO today will sign their name to a project which will keep their company in the red for their entire tenure. The people on your list would have done it in a heartbeat, knowing it'll lead to higher profits in the long term (i.e. the PRR electrified in the 1930s). Besides that, for many infrastructure projects the cost is so high no bank would or could loan out that much money.

Yes you are a liberal in sheep's clothing whose words bely being in the middle on most issues you post about here. Your posts reek of socialist handout propaganda, including believing that it is an obligation that people are mandated to have what you consider a living wage, student debt forgiveness, and a myriad of other programs to help unfortunate people and a need to mandate/regulate actions such as using existing oil & gas supplies to have the country prosper again.

So your answer is what, pull yourself up by your bootstraps or drop dead? Don't help people, they'll eventually create a myriad of social problems which cost more to solve. You won't be able to escape them even in your gated community. Hey, I have the perfect fix for those handouts you despise which I think you'll love. Once you can't work any more due to age or disability, the government carts you off, kills you, sends your body to medical schools, and donates any good organs. It even nicely solves the Social Security shortfall.

Let's not bother regulating businesses either, so they could keep polluting in the name of profits. We actually did that for a large part of US history. Now we're spending huge sums cleaning up the mess. Every mandate or regulation is written in blood.

Hey, forget student loans. Repeal child labor laws. Since work is so wonderful for young people, just put 'em to work as soon as they can walk. We'll save on K-12 education to boot.

That great, romantic vision you have of what this country supposedly was never actually existed. A lot of it was built on the backs of slaves or indentured servants.

That's because you don't realize that the liberal party and current administration policies you have supported in your posts here have been following their beliefs, including open borders with untold terrorists already finding their way in.

Stop attributing sh*t to me I never said. I've consistently been against the far left's open border nonsense. I'm not really that cool on the idea of sanctuary cities, either, other than to handle a very limited number of victims of political oppression. Why is it if a person might espouse some ideas on the left, you assume they're cool with all of them? Half your posts are about owning liberals. It's getting really old.

Senate hearings today revealed that this administration and the support given by liberal states with their sanctuary city/state do gooder policies actually believes the border is secure....that's what they said in the face of fat least 10 million illegals since Biden took office. It is almost guaranteed we will have another series of terrorist attacks because of these policies, and the draw of sanctuary cities/states and open borders.

Well, if you have a way to secure our huge land and sea borders there are plenty of people of both parties who would love to hear it. How did that Great Wall work out for China?

This is what your people wanted, so they should get at least 10 times more illegals so it equals the per capita flooding into Texas towns like El Paso who northern liberals didn't give two shits about until they showed up in their dysfunctional cities. Then perhaps they will learn how badly they have ****ed up this country in 3 short years.

Your, us. You just showed your true colors. It's the United States of America, not the Divided States of America.

I gotta love your crocodile tears for El Paso too. If it's so bad there why haven't I read about it or watched it on the news?

 

[kaichu dento]

As far as I know you're not in any position of power to radically change things. I know I'm not.

This again does not ring true, as you persist with the fervor of one confident in their ability to change the entire world from the inside of this forum.

 

[kaichu dento]

You're not thinking this through fully.

Of course I am, but you're not based on your faulty assumptions of what I posted. Each should stand on their own two feet and generosity for the truly disadvantaged needs to come from the freewill of the local community and not the mandated demands from our overlords who feign compassion with our dollars.

 

[jtr1962]

This again does not ring true, as you persist with the fervor of one confident in their ability to change the entire world from the inside of this forum.

Nope. Just honing my debating skills in the event I ever grab the attention of someone who is in a position of power. In truth, given a choice of changing the world, or just leaving it, I'll pick the latter. I'm not the first around here to say people in general suck. Not much hope on my end for anything but more of the same conflict, destruction, hatred, pettiness, jealously. Not where I had hoped we'd be in the 21st century.

 

[kaichu dento]

Not much hope on my end for anything but more of the same conflict, destruction, hatred, pettiness, jealously.

Once again your statements seem at odds with each other, unless this is a genuine statement and that you intend to contribute to the conflict and pettiness with your unnecessarily lengthy posting style.

 

[jtr1962]

Once again your statements seem at odds with each other, unless this is a genuine statement and that you intend to contribute to the conflict and pettiness with your unnecessarily lengthy posting style.

Just curious but do you earn your living in psychiatry, or a related field? Seems that way given your attempts to psychoanalyze me and a few others.

Some subjects by their nature are complex with shades of gray. Hence the lengthy posts. I'm certainly not the only one here guilty of that.

No ulterior motives here. Stuck mostly at home taking care of my mother, nobody to have regular conversations with. Forums like this one are outlets. I post in lots of places on days I don't feel like doing anything more productive.

 

[bykfixer]

Thanks for keeping it civil guys.
Insightful discussions in the Cafe' used to have 2 fates here. Name calling would ensue, or the staff would snuff out the discussion by closing the thread before it got going well.

It got really bad during covid where one side seemed to be allowed to fire sortees and as soon as the other side fired back, "WHAM!" Closed. Not just covid threads either. So being that is no longer the case, it seems like both sides of the talking points are getting a chance to express their views.

I feel confident some are cringing at how quickly threads go off the rails here anymore. Yet this one for example was destined to die early yet is still going in a direction that allows viewpoints on debt, responsibility, and big gubment vs not big to continue to be discussed without resorting to trying to shout down one another. 👍

 

[N8N]

I agree with the whole concept of being debt free, but the thing is, you gotta play the credit game. I wish someone had told me this when I was younger. As soon as you're 18 you should get 2-3 "starter" credit cards, even if they're secured, from good institutions, and use them but pay them off every month. Build your credit scores. Actually before even applying for those starter cards, if your parents have good credit, have them make you an "authorized user" on a couple of their credit cards - preferably ones that are very old and have low utilization, preferably <10% - and definitely ones that have at least a 7 year perfect payment history - and wait a month for that to report to the bureaus, THEN apply, because you'll get better results. (you don't need to use those cards, just *be* an AU.) If your parents are willing to leave you as an AU for a decade or so so much the better then you can remove yourself from their accounts and you'll have great credit compared to your peers.

It's impossible now to buy a house without a mortgage unless you're blessed with very wealthy parents. At the rate I'm saving right now, it would literally take me 500 months - that's 42 years - to save up enough in cash to buy a "starter home" where I live. You might also want to get a car loan someday and without doing the above it'll be much more difficult. So, you gotta play the game. Thing is, by using a credit card for your day to day purchases, you get better buyer protection than using cash or a debit card, so you do get some value for those credit card fees (which you pay anyway, because they're baked into the cost of pretty much everything now.)

I'm a bit older than 18 now and I am rebuilding my credit because I never really paid attention to it. There's nothing super bad on there except for one late payment that happened for a stupid reason but will fall off my reports in a little over a year. Because I don't have a lot of savings right now (coming off a bad relationship that pretty much wiped me out) I will not be buying a car or house in the foreseeable future, so I just got a couple new cards a few months ago and am using those exclusively angling for them to pump up my credit limit so in a year or so down the road my credit scores will hopefully be better than if I'd only kept the two cards I had and did nothing other than use them and make payments on time. But if I'd started off as per above I would have had better credit in my early 20s and I would just have had to maintain it since.

Of course, rule #1 is going to be pay your statement balance in full every month before the due date except in case of emergencies or planned, strategic large purchases - and even then, pay at least the minimum every month, period.

 

[N8N]

I didn't say no government. Please read what I actually said. There are very very few things that are worthwhile done by the government. Most of the infrastructure and building of the country was done by capitalists like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Vanderbilt, Guggenheim, etc.

A lot of infrastructure like the Interstate highway system, various dams (including power plants), and ongoing maintenance of same, including bridges etc. were NOT paid for by capitalists. In fact, I live near one of the few privately built/maintained highways in the US and it's prohibitively expensive to use. Likewise, most large airports are owned by various governmental organizations, most sports stadiums are generally paid for by municipal bonds, etc. (I disagree with that latter but whatever, I'm making a point here) etc.

 

[turbodog]

...generosity for the truly disadvantaged needs to come from the freewill of the local community ...

Can't have a modern society if your fallback option is, essentially, begging, hoping the deep red neighbors can look past your neon hair so you can eat this week.

You've bought into the false 'welfare queen' from reagan's days. This apparition, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.

 

[turbodog]

I agree with the whole concept of being debt free, but the thing is, you gotta play the credit game. ...

Of course, rule #1 is going to be pay your statement balance in full every month before the due date except in case of emergencies or planned, strategic large purchases - and even then, pay at least the minimum every month, period.

Lotta good comments in here.

I'll add... I wouldn't be too concerned w/ paying off a house. If the note fits into your cash flow, then invest the difference and go on.

For those that say " It's paid off, it's mine now ". You sure about that? Try not paying homeowner taxes for a few years and get back to me about who owns it now.

A paid for property is also a target for lawsuits. Get into a wreck... the plaintiff is coming after a house with a lot of nice juicy equity.

This is also a reminder, go to your insurance agent and get a personal umbrella policy. It covers practically everything and costs very little.

 

[turbodog]

... Not where I had hoped we'd be in the 21st century.

The world is not nearly as advanced as we like to think.

 

[jtr1962]

As soon as you're 18 you should get 2-3 "starter" credit cards, even if they're secured, from good institutions, and use them but pay them off every month.

When I started college they gave everyone a school credit card for the university store. Not sure if the credit bureaus count that in their score but it's one way to potentially build credit.

Other than that, I got my first "real" credit card when I opened my savings account in 1989. Back then there was less need for credit. No Internet, no online ordering. I paid cash in brick-and-mortar stores. Many stores had a minimum purchase amount anyway to use a credit card.

BTW, that savings account had 8.5% interest at the time. If only they were still giving that these days.

Of course, rule #1 is going to be pay your statement balance in full every month before the due date except in case of emergencies or planned, strategic large purchases - and even then, pay at least the minimum every month, period.

Been doing that from day one. My FICO scores have been in the low 800s to close to 850 for ages. I never needed a loan, but I'm sure I could get one at the best rate if I did.

 

[jtr1962]

It got really bad during covid where one side seemed to be allowed to fire sortees and as soon as the other side fired back, "WHAM!" Closed. Not just covid threads either. So being that is no longer the case, it seems like both sides of the talking points are getting a chance to express their views.

Thankfully I was on an extended hiatus from this place during covid, so I never saw any of those threads. I was hunkered down at home, more worried about keeping food and other supplies stocked given the fragile supply chains.

 

[bigburly912]

Can't have a modern society if your fallback option is, essentially, begging, hoping the deep red neighbors can look past your neon hair so you can eat this week.

You've bought into the false 'welfare queen' from reagan's days. This apparition, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.

I just watched literally around 50 people buy buggy fulls (no exaggeration) of half priced Halloween candy with their food stamps at Walmart and fight eachother for it.

Yes I'm dead serious. That is all.

 

[kaichu dento]

Just curious but do you earn your living in psychiatry, or a related field?

Great question, and thanks for the compliment, but the answer is no. What I do have for abilities is reading comprehension skills that are extremely valuable in making note of contradictory statements, and there are a lot of them in more than a few of your posts.

 

[bigburly912]

Great question, and thanks for the compliment, but the answer is no. What I do have for abilities is reading compression skills that are extremely valuable in making note of contradictory statements, and there are a lot of them in more than a few of your posts.

Man…. And people say I'm brutal.