Lumintop tool - 10440 or not?

[chillinn]

...As the wrapper of the battery tore, the conductive metal strip shorted out, the battery became a flaming projectile that hit me ...

That's terrible, but you kept your wits and acted accordingly. Thanks for posting. This is exactly what I meant. We must be vigilant with Li-ion cells, and not allow ourselves to become complacent because the cell is "protected."

 

[Timothybil]

Common Sense is not that Common..
An ignorant person's Common Sense is different, than the Common Sense of a person with more knowledge

The definition I like best:

Common sense comes from experience, which comes from not having common sense.

 

[fkrow]

Many thanks for this discussion, answers my questions on Lumintop Tool and batteries.

Regards,
FK

 

[tigfur]

Now answer me this
Why would you want to run LiIon in an AAA light that is not rated for the voltage, and has no protection(s), when the runtime on high is only about 10 minutes?-)

Simple answer - curiosity
Complicated answer - i just feel like something is suffocating the power of the flashlight, i feel like it could be much brighter for no reason. I mean for example look at the huge spring in the tailcap. i SO wanted to bypass it but i just couldnt get it to unscrew not even with wd 40.
Late i fell in love with 18650 lions so i thought maybe the smaller lions would be just as cool.

in about a month i am going cave exploring which is about the only hobby that actually uses our ridiculous flashlights and a small light with a huge output would be a cool show-off

 

[tigfur]

BTW this has become a very interesting thread. I think if lion cells would be normalized (sizes etc) together with a very secure protection circuit and maybe some testing they have the potencial to replace AA and AAA in a lot of places. However the technology is not ready yet.

 

[chillinn]

BTW this has become a very interesting thread. I think if lion cells would be normalized (sizes etc) together with a very secure protection circuit and maybe some testing they have the potencial to replace AA and AAA in a lot of places. However the technology is not ready yet.

I have studied history and philosophy of science and technology. History shows it is not so much that the technology isn't ready yet, it's that people don't change, won't learn new tricks. Technology changes, people stay the same. Tech manufacturers subscribe to this notion so vehemently, that none are willing to train people on new technology, most people are unwilling to learn new things, and prefer the comfortable security of old habits. How many of you know individuals that inexplicably pump the gas pedal before starting a modern car? A few, I am sure. Though progress marches steadily forward, the responsibility put on end users is seemingly less and less. As a mass, we are treated like imbeciles by technology companies, who wish to remove all thought or responsibility for preventative maintenance for our new tech. If it isn't brain dead simple, it is not for everyone. That is the hold up with Li-ion cells and mass adoption, that no one trusts that anyone could possibly learn anything new. Instead, the advancement of technolgy intends to not only make our lives easier, but prevent us from understanding why and how, while also removing the knowledge of how we coped before the new technology arrived. It's really just a big mess.

 

[jon_slider]

I think if lion cells would be normalized (sizes etc) together with a very secure protection circuit and maybe some testing they have the potencial to replace AA and AAA in a lot of places.

Good points
If you are OK with Low CRI and PWM, one option is the ToolVn w DriverVn.
(edited thanks to info in post #29): It is LiIon ONLY, has NO overdischarge protection and NO overheating protection.. so it still requires an "intelligent operator".

If I understand the technicalities correctly (not a expert), it is not possible to build LiIon overdischarge protection into a driver that is dual chemistry AAA because 1.5 volts is way below the safe discharge limit for LiIon.

 

[harro]

The instructions with my Tool ti state.......' does NOT support 10440 '

Great to see some people getting positive results from trying them anyway.

 

[staticx57]

I am familiar with the driver vinh uses, you can also buy this exact same driver sans branding from mountain electronics. It is based on a driver series designed over at BLF.

Anyways it uses an atiny 13 with a fet for direct drive. It does have PWM, does not have temp protection or over discharge protection. It has over discharge warning. I used this driver to build a tool"vn" out of a Brass Maratac "Tool" and it is indeed 10440 only

 

[jon_slider]

The instructions with my Tool ti state.......' does NOT support 10440 '

true, we are talking about people who do it anyway

the driver vinh uses
...
does not have temp protection or over discharge protection. It has over discharge warning.

thank you for helping to educate me better

 

[chillinn]

ToolVn w DriverVn. It is LiIon ONLY, I believe (confirm this)

I can confirm that.

If I understand the technicalities correctly (not a expert), it is not possible to build LiIon overdischarge protection into a driver that is dual chemistry AAA because 1.5 volts is way below the safe discharge limit for LiIon.

It is neither logically nor technically impossible to design and manufacture such a driver. It is not impossible, however, development of such a smart driver would be far more expensive than an ordinary dumb driver, have more components, to necessarily detect what kind of cell chemistry it was using. How could it tell the difference between an AAA 1.5V and an already vastly overdischarged Li-ion (which becomes dangerous when you try to recharge it)?... that would be tricky. If a Li-ion is reading 1.5V it would look exactly like an AAA.

R&D could figure these things out. I would expect that voltage is not the only singular way to tell what kind of chemistry a cell is, though it is one way. NiMH, Alkaline, LiFeS2, LiFePO4, LiCo, LiMn all likely have other characteristics that could be detected with a smart driver, such as specific characteristics of current drain. Once a second characteristic is identified, when added to the known voltage, the smart driver would be able to accurately identify any cell and apply a stored profile for that kind of cell such that low voltage protection could be implemented for any cell chemistry. It absolutely is not impossible.

Though there are no physical laws of nature preventing such a driver from existing, it is the market and the low expectation of the masses of customers, and their unwillingness to pay more for such a smart driver that prevents it from being developed. I mean... someone like Steve Wozniak, or any competant engineer, could design it with enough time and capital. Designing it is almost academic. But you'd need an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos to push something like that through development to market, where it would probably fail spectacularly to be profitable.

Edit: Ok, Apple, Inc. has the resources to solve the engineering problems, and the razmataz and hucksterability to make the idea trendy enough to interest enough of their customers into paying a ridiculous premium for such a device. Shop the idea at Apple, they could sell sand in the Sahara and make it absurdly profitable.

 

[swan]

tigfur may i suggest you have a look at the Ultratac K18.

This little light was made to and supports the 10440 which is xpg2 rated at 360 lumens and costs about $20. This light holds better regulation and is factory fitted with a led copper pcb to handle the heat better.

And finally for all you thrill seekers the latest model brass Olight I3S XPL 180 lumen model shows over 700 lumens on a 10440 [not supported] fully charged hot off the charger.
It gets hot real fast though, i have only used it in 30 second blasts and it still works fine on standard eneloops. This has similar output to my mark 1 Zebralight sc600 although only for a few seconds as the output drops quickly , but it sure is a sight to behold. Again caution should be used.

 

[Timothybil]

Just to add my two cents worth - I like the Tool, I have two in aluminum, and one in copper with one coming. The reason I have two in aluminum is just because of this discussion. I wanted to try using a 10440 for myself, and wanted to be able to do side-by-side comparisons without risking my more expensive Cu version.

So my second aluminum came the other day. Yesterday I dropped a 10440 cell in it and tried it out. Meh. Yes, it's brighter, but it seemed to my naked eye that there was less difference between the modes than when using an AAA cell. And yes, even in those few seconds I had it one, I noticed more heat in the head, as expected. I didn't see any tint shift, and by applying my old wagon wheel/fan test I couldn't detect any PWM.

So, since these lights for me are always going to be inside and/or close quarters lights, I am just going to stick with the AAA form factor. I do plan on putting an NiMh in one and seeing how long it lasts and how sell it performs. If I find anything interesting, I'll pass it on.

PS: They are so cute though! Where else can one find such a cute, functional light of this size for around $10? And both of my Coppers were under $25 as well. Money well spent, even if just to play with.

 

[Brokenarrow]

Digging this out of the past to see if things have changed and possibly the 10440's now will work in the little tool?
Much to learn.....

 

[aznsx]

Digging this out of the past to see if things have changed and possibly the 10440's now will work in the little tool?
Much to learn.....

Not familiar with the specific light, but in general; If it is not recommended by the manufacturer, it comes down not only to 'do you feel lucky today?', but do you feel lucky into the future. The effects of operating a light above specified input voltage range are often not immediately evident, but can cause a light to fail in the future, unexpectedly, and (with my luck) possibly at the worst time. You may be OK with that.

 

[jon_slider]

to see if things have changed

No change with the AAA Tool

however there is a new AAA option that does work w 10440, the Reylight Pineapple Mini

 

[aznsx]

No change with the AAA Tool

however there is a new AAA option that does work w 10440, the Reylight Pineapple Mini

I don't have a 'Tool' and know little about them, but from what I recall, the 2 are in rather different price range - yes?

 

[jon_slider]

there are pros and cons

there are 4 different Tool metals. imo the Tool has a better switch than the Reylight

the Reylights also come in different metals.. Reylights have a better LED, a better pocket clip, and a driver with more mode and memory options

 

[aznsx]

there are pros and cons

there are 4 different Tool metals. imo the Tool has a better switch than the Reylight

the Reylights also come in different metals.. Reylights have a better LED, a better pocket clip, and a driver with more mode and memory options

Yes, always pros and cons. When I spend more I expect to get more, and in this case one probably does (I would hope). I often spend more to get more; I look for value / $, not just lowest price.

I was just suggesting that the price difference might suggest that they would be successful with 2 different buyers, as budgets are tighter than ever these days - especially mine! :-(