Pocket carry defense unit about 5" with batteries for CA teacher and traveler

[Monocrom]

Monocrom -

This is not strictly 'on' the topic of this thread (which I don't specifically wish to address), but one small correction is in order just for clarity.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the 'better' manufacturers test and document output to PLATO/ANSI FL1 standards (and that is not limited to PLATO member companies), and test and rate their lumen output ratings OTF (out the front), not bare emitter. Some may provide both 'emitter / LED' and 'OTF' (normally referenced as "FL1") ratings (such as Eagtac, for example), but I'm fairly certain all FL1-compliant output ratings are 'OTF' as a requirement. There are some (perhaps many now) manufacturers who do not provide FL1-compliant specs and ratings, but I stay away from them for (hopefully) obvious reasons.

Sorry, but I don't believe such claims from various flashlight makers. SureFire has an integrating sphere to measure output out the front. All of the large players can easily afford one. Smaller companies, different story.

Hope you don't mind, but I'll use the example you cited above. That particular company, when they first arrived on CPF, swore that they were an American company with their headquarters right here in America, but lights made overseas. Okay, fair enough. I actually bought one of their original models (the AA version). Liked it a lot actually. Body a tad on the slick side. But I found it to be an overall very good EDC light. Planned on buying more. Never did.

They actually gave the address of their company headquarters here in America. Another member, wish I could recall his name, worked some magic and discovered it was the residencial address of one of their employees. To their credit, the company came clean. But only after getting caught. Didn't really have a good reason why. Still, the company is now respected. Personally, I'm not convinced that they, and other smaller companies measure Out The Front output. Just being honest. Not buying it.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

I'd normally agree. Main issue is, so many folks are completely oblivious to their surrounds; that someone targeting them is just going to get close to them before they even realize the brown stuff has hit the fan. Not a question of letting someone get close. For many, they just don't pay attention and it happens. Individuals such as you and I would never let that happen. The average person asking for defensive recommendation? Completely different story.

Using a kick to the groin or a kick to push away the attacker (front snap kick, side kick) still keeps them at a distance. If they have a knife or other weapon and you move in to get close enough to use something like a kubaton, you're going to lose. Their weapon can reach and yours can't. If they get in too close to kick (and you're still breathing), go for the eyes, throat, and groin (any soft targets), then run.

Ideally, best to avoid bad neighborhoods. If you can't, don't travel alone. If you are alone, make sure someone knows where you are, when you'll be back, and when to call for help if you're not back by a certain time. Try to treat people with respect. Saying the wrong thing to the wrong person can lead to a broken nose. Try not to look like an easy target. Keep your eyes up when you walk. Make eye contact with people. Use your peripheral vision to see the bigger picture of what is around you. If you feel like anyone is following you or looks like trouble, locate your exits and nearest help. If someone makes a threatening move, run and get help. You may have to kick them down first if they block your exit. The more you plan ahead and the more aware of your environment you are, the less chance you'll get attacked.

 

[Monocrom]

Again, the defender is not the one moving in.
With the average person looking for a suggestion, realistically; the aggressor is already too close. I'm not suggesting someone defend themselves with a scalloped bezel flashlight by moving in towards the aggressor. I'm saying when a defender who hasn't been paying attention to their surroundings realizes that the threat is up close & personal, a scalloped bezel becomes a good option. And by up close, I mean too close to even utilize a kick because the threat is going to be too close for a kick to be effective. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

You can defend yourself if an attack is imminent. If you see a group of bad guys surrounding you, one pulls out a knife, or threatens to kill you, you don't legally have to wait for them to hit you. Sometimes the defender has to make the first move if they want to live. They have to bridge the gap or move in quickly to initiate the first move. A weapon with reach or a kick with a leg would help. Even if you don't initiate, a bad guy with a weapon having extension is going to likely strike first vs. a weapon with no reach. I fail to see a scenario where a person who is oblivious to a threat until it is on top of them somehow survives the initial strikes of a weapon, blocks the attacks while defending with a less effective weapon, and gets away unharmed without being hit from behind from a second attacker. If you let a bad guy get that close and you had a flashlight for a weapon, you weren't using the flashlight to spot the threat at a distance and avoid it. Use the flashlight as a flashlight and you're more likely to stay out of trouble.

 

[aznsx]

Sorry, but I don't believe such claims from various flashlight makers. SureFire has an integrating sphere to measure output out the front. All of the large players can easily afford one. Smaller companies, different story.

Hope you don't mind, but I'll use the example you cited above. That particular company, when they first arrived on CPF, swore that they were an American company with their headquarters right here in America, but lights made overseas. Okay, fair enough. I actually bought one of their original models (the AA version). Liked it a lot actually. Body a tad on the slick side. But I found it to be an overall very good EDC light. Planned on buying more. Never did.

They actually gave the address of their company headquarters here in America. Another member, wish I could recall his name, worked some magic and discovered it was the residencial address of one of their employees. To their credit, the company came clean. But only after getting caught. Didn't really have a good reason why. Still, the company is now respected. Personally, I'm not convinced that they, and other smaller companies measure Out The Front output. Just being honest. Not buying it.

I get that. I should have clarified very specifically that I used that company reference only as an example of one who lists both numbers, but would not use them as an example of a company in whom I have high confidence. Also, if I had any valid reason to lack confidence in any company, I would not buy their products. If they can't be trusted on one thing, then I don't trust them with regard to other things. We have that in common for sure.

But for the sake of marketing, it's the emitter lumens that get reported by almost all flashlight makers.

Back to the point I was originally trying (perhaps poorly) to make. When you say "almost all flashlight manufacturers" I'm not sure which companies you have in mind, but I can tell you who I had in mind when I said

To the best of my knowledge, most of the 'better' manufacturers test and document output to PLATO/ANSI FL1 standards (and that is not limited to PLATO member companies), and test and rate their lumen output ratings OTF (out the front), not bare emitter.

That list of 'better' manufacturers includes most of the more highly-respected manufacturers regularly discussed on this forum historically, and they're not necessarily either larger companies or PLATO members either. These publish their specs / ratings as being in compliance with FL1 standards, I have good reason to be confident in most of them personally where their ratings are concerned, and have no reason to lack confidence in the others' ratings based on everything I've heard from others. To single out a few of them specifically, I can do that: The list includes (in no particular order) names like Streamlight, Fenix, Maglite, Elzetta, Malkoff, Nitecore, ASP, Surefire, etc. If I found reason to believe any of them were dishonest / misleading on any of their claims, I'd not buy another thing from them, but at this time, I 'trust' that most of their ratings are legit.

Those are the kind of companies who figure prominently on my "most of the better manufacturers" list, along with a number of the more 'mass market' brands. More? Most likely any company on this list deserves 'benefit of the doubt' regarding honesty in ratings advertising, until otherwise proven unworthy:

Member Organizations

www.plato-usa.org

In short, I have to have some reason for having confidence in a company to have confidence in their claims, then I have to like what they're claiming, then I may purchase their products. All that is earned with me, not granted on casual hear-say or group think. We all have to decide what we believe and don't believe, and I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to share my personal judgements. I could provide a list of several companies who I lack confidence in, some with very good and demonstrable reason, but I'm not gonna go there.

Sorry my 'example' became an unnecessary and irrelevant distraction from the point I was trying to make. I didn't need to reference a specific company, but now I've referenced several anyway

I think some people wanted to discuss personal defense strategies / equipment, which I have no interest in discussing, but 'as you were' to them.

EDIT: I was just looking around the Malkoff site (not that I have any budget left right now), and noted that I don't actually see references to FL1 specifically regarding output ratings, but I do see the phrase "Measured Out the Front Lumens" used, so I guess for purposes of this discussion (LED vs OTF lumens), that will suffice. Although I didn't scour the whole site, I was apparently incorrect when I stated that they reference FL1 however, so I'll correct that detail. I wish they did, but 'to each their own'. I do imagine they're trustworthy and honest with the info that they do present though, even if it's not as complete as I'd like to see.

 

[bykfixer]

Back when the lumen wars had manufacturers duking it out over who can do 300 lumens, there were a bunch of Pinochio looking ad execs trying to hood wink the masses into buying their product(s) as they were replacing an incan Rayovac with those new "indestructable LED" numbers.

Now that between 500 and 750 is the norm for a 6P size flashlight the exagerations have largely become a moot point. So now the claim is 18,000 lumens from a light for 12.5 seconds and 475 lumens after that. Can they achieve 18,000 lumens? Eh, who gives a hoot? 12,000-16,000 all looks the same anyway.

I think the OP can easily find what he seeks nowadays and if needed for sudden lights out, thwarting off a 40 pound mountain lion that wandered into the classroom or stave off an attacker a few dozen lumens one way or the other won't really matter after 250 lumens anyhow. The shape of the beam will probably matter more than the lumen count.