Primary vs. Rechargeable. What's in your HDS?

[archimedes]

Protection circuits can unfortunately also catastrophically fail in a "dead short" manner

 

[jon_slider]

Battery mounted PCBs are small, cheap, and fragile. They can fail for lots of reasons unrelated to the battery's health.

fair enough, thanks for keeping me honest

I just felt like it got more into the nature of cells rather than li-ion vs primary.
...
On a side note, glad to see you spending more time with us here lately

thanks for the kind welcome,
and I think you may be right.. sometimes my brain takes off on a tangent, and I become a long-winded turbo poster

Im open to learning, and I appreciate and can see your point, flat top vs button top, ICR vs IMR, are all secondary to the original question

Protection circuits can unfortunately also catastrophically fail in a "dead short" manner

all good points
plus batteries can run out of juice
more good reasons to carry spare batteries, in a backup light

Protected cells work in all my lights
I dont want to have to stock different types of LiIon for the HDS

besides, HDS can overdischarge unprotected cells, if I try hard enough

 

[emarkd]

I know at this point we're all just sharing our own personal experiences and anecdotes, but if anyone is keeping score you can put me in the "unprotected" category. I don't like protected cells. There's a strip of metal connected to the positive terminal and running the entire length of the can, which is all negative, separated by one strip of kapton tape. And yes it can wear through and fail catastrophically. This is the closest I ever came to something scary happening with a li-ion cell. This thing shorted through and heated up RED HOT in seconds, burning itself in two and severing the circuit. If it hadn't done that, I'm not sure what would have happened. But I don't think it would've been good.

This is what it looked like after I removed the wrapper.

 

[bigburly912]

Emarkd that's how mine went. I thought it was going to explode but it looked like aluminum foil in a microwave. Scared me to death. Don't know how or what caused it.

 

[INFRNL]

Just out of curiosity, what brands were the cells where this happened.

I know a fellow member here had a very bad experience with a cell and charger but don't remember all the details. Also not sure if it was protected or unprotected cell.

Sadly, even unprotected/imr cells can do strange things. There is no perfectly safe choice. I can see why you guys choose unprotected but I'll take my chances with protected.

I had a very bad experience with an imr nearly exploding in my pocket. It probably had nothing to do with the cell initially but the overall outcome with imr almost exploding was not the safest cell for this particular situation

 

[bigburly912]

Mine was a Panasonic 18650 ncr. Don't remember exactly. Maybe 18650ga???

 

[INFRNL]

Thanks, i was wondering if it was a well known cell or not

 

[bigburly912]

Oh yeah mine was that's why I was so shocked. I still don't know what caused it to blow. It was literally sitting on a wooden table. Had been in a light, wasn't ran long or hard at all. Was going to charge it and it just went crazy.

 

[INFRNL]

That would be a pretty freaky moment/ situation. I better get some of those flame retardant pouches to store my cells in then. I currently have many cells scattered about in my office. Would hate for a fire to start in the house

 

[Modernflame]

I know a fellow member here had a very bad experience with a cell and charger but don't remember all the details.

That would be me. Sadly, all lithium chemistry comes with some risk. This is true of IMR, ICR, and lithium primary, although the latter are normally benign unless mismatched in series.

In my case, a new, high quality IMR cell on its first charge cycle went nuclear on a new charger in my living room. It is frightening and the memory does somewhat reinforce my decision to run my HDS lights on 123's. A couple of guys voted for the 2AA version. Eneloops are generally pretty chill, so I understand this choice too.

 

[Sos24]

but after all that, the battery I like is the Olight Protected and mini USB rechargeable, because I dont need anything but a phone cable, to charge it back up. And it is safe to use in other lights that dont have the sophisticated battery recognition and overdischarge protection features of HDS

Is the Olight w/mini USB longer than other 16340 batteries, I know the Fenix ones are? If so, have you had any issues with running batteries with the mini USB in your HDS or other lights? I have been hesitant to use mine because of concern that the extra length might cause issues with he spring if later tried using primaries or regular 16340.

 

[INFRNL]

That would be me. Sadly, all lithium chemistry comes with some risk. This is true of IMR, ICR, and lithium primary, although the latter are normally benign unless mismatched in series.

In my case, a new, high quality IMR cell on its first charge cycle went nuclear on a new charger in my living room. It is frightening and the memory does somewhat reinforce my decision to run my HDS lights on 123's. A couple of guys voted for the 2AA version. Eneloops are generally pretty chill, so I understand this choice too.

Thanks for the added info. I didn't want to formally announce you if you didn't want to share. Sorry if i brought back bad memories.

I'm sure you gave me the details initially but it was a while ago and probably slipped my mind.

Definitely a good point of why to choose primaries or eneloops.

As you know, i used to be anti-primaries, but as i mature and learn from experiences, things tend to change over time.

I mainly use primaries or 18650 lately. I might eventually get back to using li-ion exclusively again (after i deplete my stock of primaries)

 

[jon_slider]

Thanks for all the anectdotal reports of battery failures, both for protected ICR, and unprotected IMR

Im wary of LiIon. I store them in a metal box, in hopes that will contain a potential fire.
I never charge LiIon unless I am watching the whole time, I also touch the battery to see if it is getting hot during charging. I have not use LiIon for long. I have used IMR, and like the extra runtime for lights that fit the 18350 size. But most of my lights dont fit 18350, so I mostly use my protected 16340, even in the 18350 compatible light. I use paper money to prevent rattling.
here is my IMR an a Fenix USB, note the different size of the positive post. The IMR does not make contact in the pictured light, an RRT-01 magnetic rotary.

the fenix cell works in that light, which has a very long spring in the tail. I do not like using the Fenix in my Olight Minis, too tight.

Is the Olight w/mini USB longer than other 16340 batteries, I know the Fenix ones are?

You are correct that the Fenix version is longer, I do not recommend those. The Olight version are not as long as the Fenix, and I have not had any concerns about how tight they fit, or how hard I have to turn the tailcap to compress the spring over an Olight 16340 USB cell.

You are also correct that protected cells are longer than CR123, the Fenix are longer than my other protected 16340
left to right, CR123, Olight Protected w USB 16340, and the Fenix version

all those batteries work in my Novatac, but I wont choose to buy the Fenix again.

 

[ven]

Ironically over literally 1000's of charge cycles, i have had one cell vent.................that was a nimh AA. Damn it was toasty as in grab to chuck out of charger and ouch toasty. I could hear a hiss, looked and at 1st thought it was a li ion cell(as they were being charged as well). After removing those quick, the hiss/noise stayed which left the red hot nimh cell left.

I dont know what would or could have happened if i was not next to it at the time, possible fire, maybe just destroy the charger or that bay..............dont know and glad i never found out. It was an older cell, but i am actually more wary of nimh than li ion................as that is where my bad experience has been(so far!). I would hazard a guess, old cell, charger for some reason thought or mistook the chemistry and over charged.........dont know so speculation/guess.

Dont use enough primaries to even form any kind of picture, i do have them though(CR123's).

 

[bigburly912]

I hope you have them in a plastic container in that metal box? If for some reason the ends hit that metal it can short them out. FWIW the AW cells I have right now are protected. I just prefer primaries in lights that can take them. I'm not really afraid of any chemistry because I watch what I do, one bad egg won't spoil anything for me. : D

 

[jon_slider]

I hope you have them in a plastic container in that metal box?

yes, definitely, I do not keep any cells loose, I use the plastic battery cases.

I also use some special cases for times when I carry a single cell as backup

the PicoPull XL (expensive, from Countycomm.com) on the left was what tipped me off to the Fenix being longer than the Olight. That case closes all the way with the Olight battery. The black case on far right, that looks like a film cannister is actually much smaller than a film cannister, and it comes from Oveready, the are very inexpensive, and made to fit 18350 also, so I wrap paper money around a 16340 when I use that case, to stop rattling.

 

[Nimitz68]

I use Orbtronic 700 mAh RCR123 in my EDC Tactical rotary 325. Works well with no issues.

 

[jon_slider]

Orbtronic 700 mAh CR123

glad to hear you found a battery that works well for you.

fwiw that is a protected RCR123 with ICR chemistry, the most typical LiIon that most people use, unless they specify IMR (good in HDS, even unprotected) or LiFeP0 (not good in HDS)

more details about the meaning of ICR and IMR here

 

[gurdygurds]

Ugh, hate reading these threads but it's a great reminder of potential dangers. This is why a while back I went straight strictly eneloop and the occasional alkaline and lithium primary. The Basic that arrives tomorrow will be primary ONLY. Just a potential issue that I don't need to deal with when it comes to fun hobby type stuff. Was thinking about dabbling with lithium ion again but that's gonna be a no.

 

[Lithium466]

You know that CR123A batteries can actually be more dangerous than rechargeables, right ? Although in a single battery light, the risk is next to 0 if you use quality batteries.