Tactical Flashlight techniques - take two

[Beastmaster]

And finally - the Keller method.

Frankly - I don't like this method. It's too motor skill intensive, and the support/flashlight arm and wrist can and will interfere with the slide of the pistol. The third picture will show that pretty clearly.

 

[adamlau]

An excellent thread, Beastmaster. I favor the Harries technique myself.

 

[Beastmaster]

An excllent thread, Beastmaster. I favor the Harries technique myself.

Thanks.

My personal favorites are Harries, Rogers, Thorpe, and FBI.

There's an axiom where if you have too many choices to make, your decision paths in your brain slow down because there's more to process. So I personally force myself to only use 3-4 of them at the most because I don't want to slow down the process in my head.

-Steve

 

[Supernam]

Chapman for side-switches by far. It's so stable and easy to do without any awkward crossovers or bends of the wrist. Especially for the SL-20X's and Stingers that are so common with law enforcement officers.

 

[KeeperSD]

Excellent work Beastmaster, nice post and the pics add 1000 words.

My post in the first thread was a little negative, sorry about that (it was early in the morning). Only reason i tried to push it in a direction that includes these other holds is that our Police Service teaches a method similar to the Chapman. Unfortunately our Police Service does not allow provide regular training so they choose a hold that utilises 2 hands on the firearm.

Personally FBI looks to unstable for me and a single handed shooting grip, while the the cigar holding style of grips look fine motor skill orientated, again we don't get enough training for this. I think for me i would lean to the Harries with a tail cap switch

 

[Lightraven]

That last one doesn't make much sense to me. Who is Keller? Not Helen, right?

I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.

I've got techniques I like better than others, but in the field, when doing it for real, I really don't know what I'll do. It is too situation specific. The nature of most self defense shootings is a reaction shot to being attacked and frequently the gun must be unholstered first. At that point, technique sort of goes out the window in order to put rounds on target.

At the range today, our people would spend precious seconds setting up the Harries or FBI and then shooting an unmoving piece of paper without a time constraint. In real life, those seconds may be bullets flying by you (or into you) or a bad guy coming in with a knife or club. The last time I set up a Harries in the field, I spotted a bad guy walking towards me with a stick or rebar from about 300 yards away. In this same exact spot, a coworker previously shot and killed an attacker with a knife. So, I was well prepared with Surefire M3 (and loads of backup units) by the time he got to me. No fight occurred.

But a lot of shootings involve running and dodging and wrestling which none of these techniques seem to take into account. I mean, how many of these techniques can you actually chase somebody?

Thanks for the pictures.

 

[Beastmaster]

Excellent work Beastmaster, nice post and the pics add 1000 words.

My post in the first thread was a little negative, sorry about that (it was early in the morning). Only reason i tried to push it in a direction that includes these other holds is that our Police Service teaches a method similar to the Chapman. Unfortunately our Police Service does not allow provide regular training so they choose a hold that utilises 2 hands on the firearm.

Personally FBI looks to unstable for me and a single handed shooting grip, while the the cigar holding style of grips look fine motor skill orientated, again we don't get enough training for this. I think for me i would lean to the Harries with a tail cap switch

No biggie about the comments - It's now corrected way better than what I thought it would be.

As for the FBI position - there are some advantages (rare in my view) that the FBI technique provides. One is that it allows you to cut a corner in a way that it allows the flashlight to lead first.

It also doesn't blind you with reflection against your firearm. There are so many cons though, that I don't like it in general.

-Steve

 

[Beastmaster]

That last one doesn't make much sense to me. Who is Keller? Not Helen, right?

I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.

I've got techniques I like better than others, but in the field, when doing it for real, I really don't know what I'll do. It is too situation specific. The nature of most self defense shootings is a reaction shot to being attacked and frequently the gun must be unholstered first. At that point, technique sort of goes out the window in order to put rounds on target.

At the range today, our people would spend precious seconds setting up the Harries or FBI and then shooting an unmoving piece of paper without a time constraint. In real life, those seconds may be bullets flying by you (or into you) or a bad guy coming in with a knife or club. The last time I set up a Harries in the field, I spotted a bad guy walking towards me with a stick or rebar from about 300 yards away. In this same exact spot, a coworker previously shot and killed an attacker with a knife. So, I was well prepared with Surefire M3 (and loads of backup units) by the time he got to me. No fight occurred.

But a lot of shootings involve running and dodging and wrestling which none of these techniques seem to take into account. I mean, how many of these techniques can you actually chase somebody?

Thanks for the pictures.

Not a problem!

The Keller method is named after some guy from the Georgia State Police (IIRC). Again, I really don't like it. It's obvious to me that it was designed mainly for revolvers and does not take into account large framed semi-autos like the full sized 1911 and the Glock 21.

As for being on the run - I would hope that no one uses this stuff while on the run.

This is where the Woo technique seems to be interesting - if I can get more details on it. Also - the First Light Tomahawk's seem to help address some of the "on the run" issues as well.

Flashlight techniques is more of a learned and applied skillset depending on the situation. Again - I'm familiar with a lot of them...but I don't use many of them because I don't want to not only confuse my decision loop, I also want to use a method that's easily adaptable. That is one (and one of the rare) advantage to the FBI method - it's adaptable to a lot of variants like the Puckett.

The Harries technique has some advantages too. For someone that's getting too close - rubber stamp the perp in the head. The position of the Harries with the icepick hold works well for that defense, and you can quickly get back to the ready position with the Harries.

Either way - I can't emphasize practice, practice, practice. Whatever method you use - practice it!

-Steve

 

[djblank87]

Beastmaster, very good work. :thumbsup:

Some of the holds bring back memories......

 

[Patsplace]

The Harries looks like the most natural to use and assume and while in it you are not compromising your hold on either your pistol or your light.

The Ayoob stuff looks good with a side switch but quite a bunch of them seem like you'd turn your light on and leave it on. Yikes!!

Intersting stuff. I've been thinking, since I discovered this site, to spend some time at the range going through some "fire and maneouver" stuff with the lights out, and Zot, here's some rudimentry instruction.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks,
Pat

 

[nosuchagency]

very nice, beast. thx for taking time to post pics.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Steve,

The TigerLight has its switch on the side and toward the rear of the light.

Any comment on a method for using this type of switch orientation?

Tom

 

[Hobbit712]

I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.

I've got techniques I like better than others, but in the field, when doing it for real, I really don't know what I'll do. It is too situation specific. The nature of most self defense shootings is a reaction shot to being attacked and frequently the gun must be unholstered first. At that point, technique sort of goes out the window in order to put rounds on target.

At the range today, our people would spend precious seconds setting up the Harries or FBI and then shooting an unmoving piece of paper without a time constraint. In real life, those seconds may be bullets flying by you (or into you) or a bad guy coming in with a knife or club. The last time I set up a Harries in the field, I spotted a bad guy walking towards me with a stick or rebar from about 300 yards away. In this same exact spot, a coworker previously shot and killed an attacker with a knife. So, I was well prepared with Surefire M3 (and loads of backup units) by the time he got to me. No fight occurred.

But a lot of shootings involve running and dodging and wrestling which none of these techniques seem to take into account. I mean, how many of these techniques can you actually chase somebody?

Excellent posts from both Lightraven and Beastmaster!!

I have practiced at least 3 or 4 of these over my years on the job. And as Lightraven alludes to, I dont know what I will do if I get into a shoot situation. Hopefully, it never happens! I have come close though.

The situation may determine the method as well. Do you know where the bad guy is or are you looking for him? A lot of variations.

 

[Beastmaster]

For that one - I'd do these:

Modified Ayoob - use the thumb of the gun hand to press the light switch of the flashlight in the support hand

Chapman - just make sure that the head of the flashlight doesn't intrude near the muzzle of the pistol too much

Harries - doable but you don't get the ability to rest the light against your forearm and your support hand bears all the weight of the light.

The most effective one - the Puckett. You get support from your shoulder and it's triggerable with your thumb. Hold it in an ice pick hold with your thumb near your shoulder and on the switch.

-Steve

Hello Steve,

The TigerLight has its switch on the side and toward the rear of the light.

Any comment on a method for using this type of switch orientation?

Tom

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Steve,

Thanks.

Tom

 

[Lightraven]

Thank you. In my training with a well experienced retired LAPD SWAT and Metro firearms instructor, he has a similar program to Surefire, but has all the experience and knowledge that I don't. He used Harries for a real shooting and he likes it best. In my opinion, Harries comes closest to the goal of a steadier gun hold and I generally like it, for known threats and searches. His night fire training is difficult--you may not even fire a shot, let alone hit your target because of the time constraints.

I remember clearly doing a Puckett--what we call chin index--for a vehicle pursuit that bailed out into the desert at night. This is probably my favorite, overall. The light and muzzle are on target very quickly, even when the threat is not directly in front of your body, the sights and gun are illuminated so they are quicker to pick up than tritium dots, there is less mental confusion over which hand controls the trigger and which controls the flashlight switch. It can work with a retention position (gun held against rib cage above holster) for possible ambushes at contact range. This hold is the most likely one in general flashlight use, so drawing a gun and shooting requires no added manipulation of the light. Gun and light are independent, so you can lower the gun while maintaining light on target--which I did during my bailout when I identified 'no-shoots' in my light.

The drawbacks are simple. You shoot one handed. This won't be as accurate as steadier two handed grips. The light is near your head, which isn't protected by body armor, so any shots fired at your light are highly risky of a serious or fatal head wound.

To Beastmaster and others:

What is the school of thought on a rapid attachment of a weaponlight to a handgun before hostilities? At least one writer in a gun magazine (might have been Tiger McGee) says this is intolerably unsafe. One of my range officer friends yesterday brought up this point, too, but more as a caution.

 

[greenLED]

BeastMaster - great job with all those pics.

A few random comments since my longer post got lost last time:

I learned to do the FBI with the arm outstretched. You can do "hi" or "low" positions (above head level and close to waist level). You gotta train yourself to bend your wrist inwards or the light will not point where you're aiming (at least with my grip).

A person at the place I train broke her hand doing the Keller as the slide hit the back of her hand. :green:

As you go through some of those pics, note that some were "designed" for when most "tactical" lights were large and had side switches.

Bottomline is, don't get attached to a single technique. Just because the Harries offers the most stable shooting platform (at least for me), doesn't mean it's perfect or the only one I'll practice. Once you have an additional object in your hands, gun control (no pun intended) will become challenging and you have to train to over come that weakness.

Practice a few tech, as some don't work properly depending on how you're moving and what you're doing at the moment.

 

[Crenshaw]

A rogers/surefire grip is very good for white wall hunting in my experience.... good job on the pics Steve

Crenshaw

 

[Beastmaster]

What is the school of thought on a rapid attachment of a weaponlight to a handgun before hostilities? At least one writer in a gun magazine (might have been Tiger McGee) says this is intolerably unsafe. One of my range officer friends yesterday brought up this point, too, but more as a caution.

I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.

I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.

-Steve

 

[djblank87]

I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.

I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.

-Steve

I agree Steve, under duress the odds of removing a light from your duty belt/pocket etc, then to get the light set on the rails and lock into place with a threat in front of you.......... = Not likley in the real world.

As you said Steve, using a light in a pistol/holster combination is the best bet for some individuals. It worked for me best to use the pistol/holster combo.