The Tint Snob Thread

[jon_slider]

L to R, Manker Lad 219c, Lumintop Worm head w 219b, Astrolux M03 219b

 

[staticx57]

No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.

But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.

 

[Tachead]

No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.

But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.

This is true because the R9050 219C's have just recently started to become used in commonly available lights.

 

[Tachead]

Another thing to keep in mind is the reflector design/geometry/coating and types of anti-reflective coatings used on a flashlight lens can have a pretty big impact on tint. That is why some companies are starting to take more care when designing reflectors and choosing AR coatings that have lower colour distortion properties, especially for models using high CRI emitters.

So, any comparisons of emitters should be done without the reflector and lenses to remove these variables.

 

[gunga]

It's true. I've only looked at dozens of LEDS. Likely only 80-90 at most. I'm not in the hundreds to thousands (yet).

 

[Woods Walker]

I don't want to be the one to bring this up but anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW though am starting to wonder if beam profile isn't a more important factor than tint. Still feel warmer tints help but dang...... high CRI didn't seem to be the ticket for this application. Just rolling it out there.

 

[jon_slider]

No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.

But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.

Generally speaking, I agree completely . I also thank you for the explanation of what 9050 and 8000 means.
I hope someone digs up the numbers for the 3 lights I posted

It helps me a lot to use specific examples. I admit to being very guilty of creating hypotheses based on single samples. Otoh, I have also spent considerable time comparing the 219c beamshots online, so my conclusion that they tend to fall above the BBL, was more than just a wild guess.. I had also spoken to gunga before commenting that I have the impression that 219c tends to tint shift above the BBL, and N219b tends to tint below the BBL. Generally speaking, people will prefer tint below, rather than above, the BBL.

When the 219c first started being mentioned online, I agree it was an 8000, but it is now appearing as a 9050, in lights like the Pineapple and LAD. unless Im mistaken. The 219c was originally intended to play catchup with CREE in the Brightness wars. However, imo, flashlight manufacturers have figured out there is a strong market for 4000k High CRI LEDs.. so they offer Both .. Consumer has a choice, buys both.. Manufacturer happy.

Now to come back around on topic with the title of the thread
Tint Snobs like Nichias better than Crees, because Nichias dont look Green!

anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW

interesting topic
having recently purchased 3000k selective Yellow foglight lamps, to replace my 5000k fogs, I have a couple of observations. The 3000k is 20% less bright. The Yellow tends to get "under" the fog, and not bounce back at me as glare as much. Im not sure if thats just because they are dimmer, since Ive not had a lot of fog time yet.

I think your comment about beam profile is definitely part of it. Can you give some specific examples of the lights you tested, and their LEDs and brightness levels?

 

[staticx57]

I don't want to be the one to bring this up but anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW though am starting to wonder if beam profile isn't a more important factor than tint. Still feel warmer tints help but dang...... high CRI didn't seem to be the ticket for this application. Just rolling it out there.

High CRI has been wrongly associated with neutral white. And yes, loads of blue light such as neutrals and cools do scatter more than warm. The best light we have for fog, incandescent, has a higher CRI than any LED. CRI is but a piece of the puzzle that tells you about the light, not the beginning of what it is.

And you are correct that beam profile is just as, if not, more important than anything else as the more directions you throw light the more opportunity there is to scatter it. It is the same reason why using your high beams in the fog is generally useless and just creates a wall of bright fog in front of you.

 

[Woods Walker]

Generally speaking, I agree completely . I also thank you for the explanation of what 9050 and 8000 means.
I hope someone digs up the numbers for the 3 lights I posted

It helps me a lot to use specific examples. I admit to being very guilty of creating hypotheses based on single samples. Otoh, I have also spent considerable time comparing the 219c beamshots online, so my conclusion that they tend to fall above the BBL, was more than just a wild guess.. I had also spoken to gunga before commenting that I have the impression that 219c tends to tint shift above the BBL, and N219b tends to tint below the BBL. Generally speaking, people will prefer tint below, rather than above, the BBL.

When the 219c first started being mentioned online, I agree it was an 8000, but it is now appearing as a 9050, in lights like the Pineapple and LAD. unless Im mistaken. The 219c was originally intended to play catchup with CREE in the Brightness wars. However, imo, flashlight manufacturers have figured out there is a strong market for 4000k High CRI LEDs.. so they offer Both .. Consumer has a choice, buys both.. Manufacturer happy.

Now to come back around on topic with the title of the thread
Tint Snobs like Nichias better than Crees, because Nichias dont look Green!


interesting topic
having recently purchased 3000k selective Yellow foglight lamps, to replace my 5000k fogs, I have a couple of observations. The 3000k is 20% less bright. The Yellow tends to get "under" the fog, and not bounce back at me as glare as much. Im not sure if thats just because they are dimmer, since Ive not had a lot of fog time yet.

I think your comment about beam profile is definitely part of it. Can you give some specific examples of the lights you tested, and their LEDs and brightness levels?

I have been field testing a Nitecore NU20. When I get a light to be tested it's not just a few white wall beam shots then a trip to the back yard. I roll it through the woods in as many conditions as possible for it's intended purpose in this case a running headlamp. Did it all. Fog, rain, snow and clear but then again the gear really was just along for the ride which was happening anyways. Also field tested a LR30 lantern. Both are high CRI. I was skeptical of the entire affair and more so given the hit in output being greater than other tint snobbery options. That said after using both I actually like it. Not sure if more so than a good CW/NW/W tinted light. Lets face it. We can have cr@py tinted lights which are supposed to be NW etc etc etc. I guess the same might apply to these 219(whatever letter which follows). Last Christmas time I firmly established "rosy tint" as the ultimate first world problem. Also people tend to associate high CRI with warm or NW and IMHO the two aren't related. My preferred tints today are what comes out of the M91W, Armytek XHP-50 W (really NW) and the cooler shade of NW which comes from the HL50 and SC5w. That's kinda a wide range in real world viewing.

I gotta say one thing however, the high CRI did probably the best job at distinguishing trail markers. Took some photos of that for the up coming field use review. But offered no more optical joy than a good pure vanilla white CW or any visually nice looking tint. Give me a nice CW which isn't space alien abduction blue or squid **** green and generally I will roll with it. I suppose if squid **** green is hated based on my limited experience these high CRI LEDs aren't green nor will they be but could be wrong. Any one of the Cree LEDs can turn squid pissy despite whatever tint claims aka squid **** side of the tint lottery being active for the entire CREE range again IMHO. My number one concern is actual light cuz don't want to fall down some icy ledge night trail running. Almost enticed enough to buy a Malkoff in high CRI.

Edit.

Tested all output levels of the NU20 and LR30 but forgot what they were at the moment.

 

[Dr Forinor]

I have to now point out that after testing my EagleTac D25C Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K last night, I find it of low CRI.

I compared it against my [very] cool white HDS Rotary (for the cool white section), and against my Malkoff NW & McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 (for the neutral/warm white section).

The colours from the D25C seem much more similar to the cool white HDS than they do with the Malkoff or McGizmo. Very disappointed, I must say.

 

[RobertMM]

I have to now point out that after testing my EagleTac D25C Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K last night, I find it of low CRI.

I compared it against my [very] cool white HDS Rotary (for the cool white section), and against my Malkoff NW & McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 (for the neutral/warm white section).

The colours from the D25C seem much more similar to the cool white HDS than they do with the Malkoff or McGizmo. Very disappointed, I must say.

That is just one instance to reiterate that CRI is independent of Color Temperature.

 

[twistedraven]

My hi cri 219B 5700k light looks completely different from other cool white low cri Crees I've played around with. It has such great inner warmth to it with the high amount of deep red rendering. I can't believe it would look similar at all to other cool whites.

 

[Dr Forinor]

That is just one instance to reiterate that CRI is independent of Color Temperature.

Independant? Or you mean dependant?

I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.

 

[Tachead]

Independant? Or you mean dependant?

I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.

You are comparing warm/neutral white to cool white. You are likely noticing the difference in colour temperature more then the CRI and have a preference/bias towards warmer colour temperatures. The emitter used in your Eagletac is the same one used in the Jaxman E2 and has been independently tested at 93CRI. It also has an R9 of 80 which is very high.

Graph courtesy of maukka.

Try comparing it against another cool white light(as close to 5700K as possible) for a better comparison. Use colourful objects with many different colours including red and blue such as cereal boxes for your comparison. You should notice it renders colours more vibrantly compared to a standard cool emitter which will make colours look dull and washed out.

 

[RobertMM]

Independant? Or you mean dependant?

I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.

I still mean independent.
Which they are.

An overdriven P60 lamp, say putting out a higher color temperature that it looks very white, is a blackbody radiator putting out 100CRI, correct?

A P60 lamp driven with less current showing around 3000K is still a blackbody radiator giving 100CRI, correct?

Somebody chime in if I am off.

 

[Dr Forinor]

You are comparing warm/neutral white to cool white. You are likely noticing the difference in colour temperature more then the CRI and have a preference/bias towards warmer colour temperatures. The emitter used in your Eagletac is the same one used in the Jaxman E2 and has been independently tested at 93CRI. It also has an R9 of 80 which is very high.

Graph courtesy of maukka.

Try comparing it against another cool white light(as close to 5700K as possible) for a better comparison. Use colourful objects with many different colours including red and blue such as cereal boxes for your comparison. You should notice it renders colours more vibrantly compared to a standard cool emitter which will make colours look dull and washed out.

Ok, not tried it with any other cool white, but I will have a go.

I know my HDS has low CRI, and the colours (albeit only greens and browns when I tested it at a golf course last night) from the EagleTac were very similar to the HDS. That's why I assumed it also has low CRI?

Before last night, I have tried it on my kids toys (that have a lot of colours) and the reds certainly do seem vibrant with the EagleTac.

Why did the colours of this Eagletac seems awfully similar to that of the low CRI HDS, when tested out on the green (and browns)?

 

[Dr Forinor]

I still mean independent.
Which they are.

An overdriven P60 lamp, say putting out a higher color temperature that it looks very white, is a blackbody radiator putting out 100CRI, correct?

A P60 lamp driven with less current showing around 3000K is still a blackbody radiator giving 100CRI, correct?

Somebody chime in if I am off.

I'm sorry, it must be me, you have completely lost me with that analogy?

 

[RobertMM]

I just meant that a certain emitter can have high or low CRI but it's CRI value will not depend on how warm or cool the temperature is.

Some think that to achieve high CRI you must have neutral or low color temperature, but clearly some emitters achieve high CRI even while emitting in the cool part of the spectrum.

 

[staticx57]

Ok, not tried it with any other cool white, but I will have a go.

I know my HDS has low CRI, and the colours (albeit only greens and browns when I tested it at a golf course last night) from the EagleTac were very similar to the HDS. That's why I assumed it also has low CRI?

Before last night, I have tried it on my kids toys (that have a lot of colours) and the reds certainly do seem vibrant with the EagleTac.

Why did the colours of this Eagletac seems awfully similar to that of the low CRI HDS, when tested out on the green (and browns)?

Greens and blues are colors Low CRI emitters tend not to be so bad with.

 

[staticx57]

I just meant that a certain emitter can have high or low CRI but it's CRI value will not depend on how warm or cool the temperature is.

Some think that to achieve high CRI you must have neutral or low color temperature, but clearly some emitters achieve high CRI even while emitting in the cool part of the spectrum.

CRI is just a comparison on how colors compare to an ideal light source. The ideal light source is a black body radiator whose spectrum changes with temperature. That is why an Incan can have 99.999999 CRI at 3000k and the sun at 5700k can also have a CRI of 99.999999999. There is no real black body radiator in nature but these two get real close. So if you have a 4500k you just compare the colors to what a 4500k black body radiator would put out.

In actuality since we have no true black bodies and incans and the sun are so close we just defined the CRI to be 100 and compare from there.