What is the deal with Surefire these days?!

[aznsx]

11B, sorry that you're having that experience, but I would be hesitant to write off all SF products (or place them in a "lower quality" category) because of that one light. You mentioned you were only using the SF 18650. Perhaps the battery itself is wonky; SF does not make those in house. Also, IMO, the "Intellibeam" seems, and has always seemed...suspect...to me. I know there are people that love the idea and it's usage, but for me....meh. Not trusting my life on a light that may go dim on me in any situation because of an "eye" failure, or "misread," or whatever you want to call it.

wacbzz: I'm definitely not trying to pick on you here, I appreciate your view and attitude about these events, don't wish to make a point about SF specifically, and like you also I want to believe the best of SF and if gives me no pleasure to hear of all this. However, perhaps influenced by my long background as a manufacturer PSE (product support eng.) for several companies, and on behalf of the OP, I'd like to clarify the fundamental facts of his experiences as stated in this thread. I just re-read each of his posts to ensure I have it right, and specifically the fundamental facts boil down to this:

This is not about "one light". Had it been one new product failure, and been handled correctly by SF Support, I wouldn't even think twice about it, and the OP probably wouldn't have either. Product failures happen, a new bad unit will make it out the door, I make plenty of errors myself, and none of that is a big deal (if handled correctly by the mfgr.). Again, this is not about 'one light'.

This is about two(2) product failures / defective new lights, presumably and believed to be different new lights, and no less than (and possibly more than) one(1) Support failure. So rather than just 'one bad light', it's two product failures (bad lights) and one Support failure - minimum. I see those as three separable and distinct SF failures that occurred, so it's 3X as bad as one failure / bad light.

The OP received one new light that was defective as received. He returned that light to SF. SF then (erroneously) sent him someone else's used light (which also appeared to not be delivered in very good shape after repair, but let's leave that completely aside). He then returned that incorrectly-shipped light, and subsequently received a warranty replacement (which Support had told him would be a new light), and it apparently was a new light; however that replacement light then also failed almost immediately.

I'm not going to say anything subjective or make any judgements about or negative comments regarding Surefire. That's not for me to do, and I don't feel I need to. I may be a pro, but I think everyone can decide for themselves how they feel about SF's performance. I simply wanted to summarize and state the actual facts of what happened for the record so that people may do that as they see fit.

Again, I ain't pickin' on ya man - I get where you were coming from

 

[knucklegary]

I had the 400 lumen version, sold it, and pretty much immediately regretted it. I now have the 600/15 version and won't part with this one. Also have the G2X Tac and the G2X Pro. Love the polymer body. I think at $79 from SF (cheaper elsewhere), they are a steal. Love that they will run on a KP 16650 AND 2x123 batteries on a pinch. The clip from Malkoff fits unobtrusively and I've just realized that Mark sells a two way clip for them on his site.

11B, sorry that you're having that experience, but I would be hesitant to write off all SF products (or place them in a "lower quality" category) because of that one light. You mentioned you were only using the SF 18650. Perhaps the battery itself is wonky; SF does not make those in house. Also, IMO, the "Intellibeam" seems, and has always seemed...suspect...to me. I know there are people that love the idea and it's usage, but for me....meh. Not trusting my life on a light that may go dim on me in any situation because of an "eye" failure, or "misread," or whatever you want...

You bring up a good question. 11B should inquire what batteries SF used during their testing, since they found no issues

What are the odds op receives two flashlights, serial numbers apart, with exact same issues?

Malfunctioning battery could very well be the root of the problem

 

[aznsx]

You bring up a good question. 11B should inquire what batteries SF used during their testing, since they found no issues

What are the odds op receives two flashlights, serial numbers apart, with exact same issues?

Malfunctioning battery could very well be the root of the problem

Good point Knucklegary, because that's not completely impossible (and therefore theoretically could be the case and can't be ruled out), although I think it's somewhat unlikely.

I have now tested it with several 18650's at varying states of charge.

OP was using multiple SF cells (which he confirmed with you earlier). All I'll say is that those are SF products with an SF part number, and if SF Support allowed things to get this far because they failed to recognize this as a 'battery problem', and were also unaware there were 'bad' ones out in the field, that would hardly speak well of them either, nor would it really affect my (and likely his) net disappointment with the whole scenario.

We may never know root cause for sure unless the OP were to try a different known-good 18650 completely unrelated to SF.

EDIT: I would only add that it is SF Support's responsibility to determine root cause.

 

[orbital]

...
We may never know root cause for sure unless the OP were to try a different known-good 18650 completely unrelated to SF.

...

+

Four pages in this thread & testing another brand of 18650* is just now mentioned.. incredible.
=in troubleshooting, that should have been done immediately.

... if one brand of 223 rounds jams, test a different brand....


*(keeppower, sanyo, panasonic )


add: if op did test a different brand of 18650, good on him,
SF issue then.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

From aznsk: "I simply wanted to summarize and state the actual facts of what happened for the record"

'Facts' as claimed by a new member.

Or maybe somebody works for Streamlight? Probably not but this is the Internet. Come on, we don't want Mr. Ed to get a cease-and-desist from Fountain Valley, CA.

 

[11Blg]

From aznsk: "I simply wanted to summarize and state the actual facts of what happened for the record"

'Facts' as claimed by a new member.

Or maybe somebody works for Streamlight? Probably not but this is the Internet. Come on, we don't want Mr. Ed to get a cease-and-desist from Fountain Valley, CA.

If there was a forum where each member had to submit credentials speaking to professional experience and evidence backing up everything they tried to present as a fact believe me I would upload those documents and join and visit no other forum. Hell, I might even be a regular participant in that case. I don't bother mentioning when I've been messing about on a forum to co-workers anymore due to the grumbles, groans, and scoffs from them. They told me long ago to stay off these things, it was good advice, and I usually follow it. However as I stated in my first post, I just wanted to share this occurrence with the flashlight enthusiast community.

Also I think it's reasonable to expect surefire's 18650 cells to power their lights properly.

 

[desert.snake]

Also I think it's reasonable to expect surefire's 18650 cells to power their lights properly.

I remember one old saying - trust, but verify. Everyone has failures in products, even where they should not be, such as space rockets and vehicles, aircraft or military equipment. From time to time, satellites deteriorate, military equipment is called in for repairs, aircraft crash, etc. I have a friend who is an industrial climber, all his equipment after he received it from the store and which has valid test certificates, he independently tests for some time at his training ground before taking this equipment and working with it in reality. If such a simple and cheap thing as a flashlight is important, then before you take it to work, maybe it's worth testing it at home?

I'm not a military man, but I know that the military has a bunch of all sorts of instructions for some standard situations. That is, is there any procedure to follow if, during a firefight, a cartridge is stuck in the weapon magazine or the reloading mechanism is jammed - take another magazine and switch to another weapon or try to lie down and try to fix the weapon on the spot? For example, a flashlight broke, are there any instructions on this?

 

[11Blg]

I remember one old saying - trust, but verify. Everyone has failures in products, even where they should not be, such as space rockets and vehicles, aircraft or military equipment. From time to time, satellites deteriorate, military equipment is called in for repairs, aircraft crash, etc. I have a friend who is an industrial climber, all his equipment after he received it from the store and which has valid test certificates, he independently tests for some time at his training ground before taking this equipment and working with it in reality. If such a simple and cheap thing as a flashlight is important, then before you take it to work, maybe it's worth testing it at home?

I'm not a military man, but I know that the military has a bunch of all sorts of instructions for some standard situations. That is, is there any procedure to follow if, during a firefight, a cartridge is stuck in the weapon magazine or the reloading mechanism is jammed - take another magazine and switch to another weapon or try to lie down and try to fix the weapon on the spot? For example, a flashlight broke, are there any instructions on this?

You speak of immediate and remedial action regarding military operations.

For example:
Immediate action for the M4 Carbine is to slap the magazine, pull the charging handle to the rear, observe the ejection port, release the charging handle, tap, or more accurately smack the hell out of the forward assist, and squeeze the trigger ie resume firing.

Remedial action would be remove the magazine, lock the bolt to the rear, observe the ejection port and magazine well, insert a new magazine, chamber a round and resume firing. Remedial action is to be attempted if immediate action fails.

There is no official immediate or remedial action for a handheld flashlight but it would be as such:

Immediate action: Replace batteries(Spares are required to be carried)

Remedial action: Present flashlight to supply echelon for DX(Damage exchange).

This(bold in your post)is exactly what I was doing. Sad to say it failed.

 

[desert.snake]

Thank you, now everything is clear.

 

[bykfixer]

Imediate action for a flashlight: whack it against palm a few times.

Remedial action for a flashlight: whack it against a tree a few times.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

We always, always appreciate reports of malfunction. Point being, we all would be advised to be able to distinguish facts and the use of that term. While I certainly do not think this is a case of user error, that has been the case with CPF members before. Certainly SureFire is not above component failure, and can't help thinking their newer products have 'more that can go wrong' than in the past. (As was mentioned already)

Years ago when SureFire was the clear leader in small brightness, there was some eager legal behavior coming from them in order to maintain their superiority, I understand. Seems like that included some communication to candlepowerforums regarding SureFire-slamming, though it was mostly all mum from leadership here due to the nature of such events. It would be enlightening to hear more details from a long-time member regarding that little nugget of flashlight history, given the passage of time.

 

[nbp]

I have heard such rumors before, from disgruntled members primarily, who did not like the fact that CPF members had favorite brands. However, If there were ever any requests from any manufacturer or dealer or supporter of the forum to censor discussion of other brands, then CPF management did a terrible job of following the "instructions", as I never heard one peep about it during my years as a Mod here, nor did I ever find reference to it in any of the previous private Mod/Admin correspondence I pored over in my own reading. The fact is that CPF members have, by and large, supported a lot of high end brands and custom builders and modders over other budget brands. Couple that with the fact that for a time, discussion of some of the overseas brands became rather spammy/shilly in nature, and you can see why they were not embraced, and some THREADS or POSTS were deleted for inappropriate advertising. Brands were never blacklisted, however. Some members, or former members, didn't like that, and seeded these ideas of brand promoting/censoring. To my knowledge and understanding, there was never any formal effort to promote or hide any brands here. If any particular Mod seemed to do that, it was their own prerogative, and should have been expressed as a member's opinion rather than as a staff viewpoint.

 

[Mister S]

Yes, I am using only surefire 18650s.

Which surefire batteries are you using?
The red ones with the usb-charging port, or the black ones without the charging port?
Have you tried using unprotected batteries?

 

[knucklegary]

Unprotected cells might be too short in length for proper contact without stretching springs (I don't recommend) However, isn't 2x Cr123 cells an option on this model?

 

[bykfixer]

Agreed, there are more things that can go wrong, especially with something that senses brightness and adjusts accordingly and potential for a few types of batteries.

I never liked the idea of light sensors dictating output. My wife's car has that technology. My favorite feature with that is the "off" feature.

Now years ago a certain person high up in the SureFire administration kept CPF going via cash donations, but that certain somebody also wanted to know what the people thought. It was the anti-SureFire type that caused the drama as it were. I was not around at the time but have met with some of the members from those "pioneer" days who indicated some got so mad they started other forums, two of which are still around. I mean there was a time when SureFire was highly regarded at CPF and at times discussions got personal. So like today, the staff squashed things as they got out of hand.

Heck, during my time here a thread like this would have been closed by now due to the posts by those for and against SureFire. Used to be a Maglite thread and a SureFire thread lasted about as long as a Covid-19 thread did in 2020 and largely due to similar angst among the posts.

CPF by and large has the best members a forum could ever hope to have. Bravo to each and everyone here.

 

[Mister S]

Unprotected cells might be too short in length for proper contact without stretching springs (I don't recommend) However, isn't 2x Cr123 cells an option on this model?

Sure. If he has some unprotected cells to try it won't hurt. I have used the unprotected Keeppower IMR18650s in my Fury Tactical with no issues..

 

[wacbzz]

Just a little battery story... I purchased a headlamp from one of the well-known name brand sellers here on this forum that came with its own branded 18650. Headlamp awesome, but after charging the battery, I couldn't get the headlamp to do some of the functions advertised. I called their customer support and the first thing they advised after hearing the problem was to try another brand of 18650 battery - "protected" the CSR stated. I did just that, with two other brands in fact, and the headlamp worked as advertised. I called them back with the news that other brands worked and they sent me out two brand new company branded 18650's. Once installed, they both worked the headlamp fine and continue to do so.

I'm not an engineer. I can't explain why that battery from the company did not work. They did replace it however and it just proved to me that the battery was the fault and not the headlamp.

TL/DR: try a different branded battery. SF CS probably wouldn't recommend that initially because of potential warranty issues, so I don't find fault with them for not doing so here. Yes, their branded batteries should work, but perhaps you were sent some from a bad batch.

Can't excuse them from sending you the wrong light though

 

[chip100t]

Can't excuse them from sending you the wrong light though

that's a bit harsh. People make mistakes, if they didn't they would not put erasers on the end of pencils.

 

[11Blg]

Which surefire batteries are you using?
The red ones with the usb-charging port, or the black ones without the charging port?
Have you tried using unprotected batteries?

I thought it best to stick with the red, protected 18650 cells surefire themselves include with the light. I also did a function test with 2 123 cells but only once. I was not interested in using them due to the hit to run time and output.

 

[wacbzz]

that's a bit harsh. People make mistakes, if they didn't they would not put erasers on the end of pencils.

Hmmmm....