Modern. 380 rounds vs 9mm

[SCEMan]

I remember when this went down in '86. I Don't think the .380 was on the FBI's radar in the lessons learned evaluation.

A Picture from History: The 1986 Miami Shootout

In this Picture from History, we examine the the 1986 Miami Shootout between a pair of bank robbers and the FBI.

www.pewpewtactical.com

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Without watching the video above, IIRC, the actual failure to stop wasn't the bullets performance, it was the officers' inaccuracy in bullet placement.

IMO, the whole 10mm/.40S&W development was a wild goose chase, that was precipitated on a lie that the massacre was caused by inadequate ammunition performance.

The whole thing is funny, we went from .38 Spl to .357 Magnum, to 9mmLuger, to 10mm, then to .40 S&W due to female officers inability to handle the 10mm pistols, and then back to 9mmLuger/NATO.

.38 Spl, .358, 9mmLuger, .355. :crackup:

 

[xxo]

I remember when this went down in '86. I Don't think the .380 was on the FBI's radar in the lessons learned evaluation.

A Picture from History: The 1986 Miami Shootout

In this Picture from History, we examine the the 1986 Miami Shootout between a pair of bank robbers and the FBI.

www.pewpewtactical.com

it wasn't a 380, it was a 9 mm silvertip that lodged itself a inch short of hitting the heart - non survivable wound causing his lungs to fill with blood but it did not stop the perpetrator from killing/severely wounding several agents before one of them took him out with a 38 special round to the chest.

 

[orbital]

Without watching the video above, IIRC, the actual failure to stop wasn't the bullets performance, it was the officers' inaccuracy in bullet placement.

IMO, the whole 10mm/.40S&W development was a wild goose chase, that was precipitated on a lie that the massacre was caused by inadequate ammunition performance.

The whole thing is funny, we went from .38 Spl to .357 Magnum, to 9mmLuger, to 10mm, then to .40 S&W due to female officers inability to handle the 10mm pistols, and then back to 9mmLuger/NATO.

.38 Spl, .358, 9mmLuger, .355. :crackup:

+

Record for number of different rounds mentioned in a single post ^

____________________________________________________________________________________

Called my local FFL to check availability of the Performance Center BodyGuard 2.0 w/ 3.1" ported barrel.
not available ----> yet

Asked if he'd check once a week, figured that was reasonable request.
He was good with that.

 

[SCEMan]

it wasn't a 380, it was a 9 mm silvertip that lodged itself a inch short of hitting the heart - non survivable wound causing his lungs to fill with blood but it did not stop the perpetrator from killing/severely wounding several agents before one of them took him out with a 38 special round to the chest.

Uh yeah. I never said it was a .380… The 115gr HP 9mm rounds in use at that time lacked penetration and inflicted deadly, but not incapacitating wounds. Thus the FBIs resulting switch to 147 gr. 9mm & 40 S&W.

 

[orbital]

+

Sometimes my posts can get frustrating or maybe even insulting to other people and I get it.
Important thing is, it's not intentional.

that said,
it easy to see where this thread can go, too powerful a round or not powerful enough,,, around and around
Sometimes you have to like what you got and that's all good, right.

In case anyone was really wondering, I'm left handed and shoot right handed

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

"Caliber war" threads usually generate a lot of heat. Any more, I try not to get into it, because it just makes folks take a side and get upset. Now my attitude is:

 

[dc38]

"Caliber war" threads usually generate a lot of heat. Any more, I try not to get into it, because it just makes folks take a side and get upset. Now my attitude is:

Those 9mm, fired from a carbine, could have made a difference to stopping power...

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Those 9mm, fired from a carbine, could have made a difference to stopping power...

Absolutely it would have! Muzzle velocity would have been boosted, so, likely penetration would have been deeper.

 

[Monocrom]

Another reason why Law Enforcement agencies are going with 9mm....
Political Correctness. A huge chunk of female officers couldn't handle the recoil, even in a full-sized .40 S&W or .45 ACP pistol. But, they could from a 9mm. Only makes sense to use one caliber across the board for all Officers in a department, as their main sidearm. And, when certain officers can't qualify, just lower the bar until they can.

 

[dc38]

Another reason why Law Enforcement agencies are going with 9mm....
Political Correctness. A huge chunk of female officers couldn't handle the recoil, even in a full-sized .40 S&W or .45 ACP pistol. But, they could from a 9mm. Only makes sense to use one caliber across the board for all Officers in a department, as their main sidearm. And, when certain officers can't qualify, just lower the bar until they can.

Never fired a 40 or 45, couldn't tell you....but shooting 9 in +p gets a decent amount of muzzle rise for me...pretty quick reacquisition, but noticable muzzle rise. Maybe my wrists are just weak...

 

[raggie33]

I recal that miami shoot out vagelyi lived down there back then

 

[orbital]

+

Heckler & Koch VP40 is a .40 S&W in a 4" barrel
If they made it a 4.5" barrel giving way to a ported system that was dialed and balanced with slide weight/springs ect..

for any officers who couldn't fire it,, office duty is their calling.

edit for better pic

 

[raggie33]

I wish i was bigger lol. If i was one of thse big ole guys down here id carry a 45 but even a 380 prints on me

 

[SCEMan]

I wish i was bigger lol. If i was one of thse big ole guys down here id carry a 45 but even a 380 prints on me

I hear you. Otherwise I'd be carrying this one in light clothing.

 

[SCEMan]

Never fired a 40 or 45, couldn't tell you....but shooting 9 in +p gets a decent amount of muzzle rise for me...pretty quick reacquisition, but noticable muzzle rise. Maybe my wrists are just weak...

I've always been a 1911 .45 fan and even though I'm a lightweight, I've never been bothered by the recoil. But then, I'm a "controlled pair" shooter with aimed first round hits, not rapid fire until dry.

 

[Chauncey Gardener]

Submitted for your consideration -

We've all run into people who have impacted our lives.

Art Viani is one of those people for me. On the topic of handgun "stopping power," Viani spent eight years working for Miami-Dade Fire Rescue. His experiences caused him to start up Ghost Inc. (ghostinc.com). It initially sold improved connectors for Glock pistols. He saw a handgun shooting victim nearly every shift. He told me, "The only'one-shot stops' I ever saw were suicides and executions.

People are hydraulic machines. [They leak] out." He figured improved trigger pulls were the best way to shoot faster and more accurately. I wholeheartedly agree. - James Tarr July 2025 Guns & Ammo

 

[orbital]

Submitted for your consideration -

+

Shootings in Miami are probably 95% drug related or for controlling drug turf.
That's very different than personal defense or how I look at it.

Back to firearms
There's very subtle differences in how a firearm feels, I have two 92FS, one in 9mm, one in .22
The slide has the majority of its mass down low on the sides (lowering center of gravity)
If you don't think that small difference effects how it feels & shoots, do a magazine 'brand z' and then a magazine in a 92FS.

Good design/engineering/craftsmanship matter

 

[raggie33]

I was a weird kid i hung out with cops as a kid. Omg in the 80s thr big issue was pcp ive heard some crazy storys guess thats why i never messsed with drugs scary stuff

 

[dc38]

+

Shootings in Miami are probably 95% drug related or for controlling drug turf.
That's very different than personal defense or how I look at it.

Back to firearms
There's very subtle differences in how a firearm feels, I have two 92FS, one in 9mm, one in .22
The slide has the majority of its mass down low on the sides (lowering center of gravity)
If you don't think that small difference effects how it feels & shoots, do a magazine 'brand z' and then a magazine in a 92FS.

Good design/engineering/craftsmanship matter

Relatively low bore axis, high grip, lower center of gravity, shorter moment of inertia...beautiful and practical design. I'm ASSUMING that the Desert Eagle took a few leaves out of the 92 design book to mitigate recoil.