Coronavirus - II

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One of your first posts in this thread says that “we are both under record, we will see who is right” paraphrased but exactly to the point of I can’t wait to be able to say I told you so.

And we'll both be waiting, because I don't do I told you so. I believe in being conscious of how future readers will read our conversations (that "internet is forever" bit,) you are in no way obligated to that idea.

From your last post it looks like you are DONE!

Being chatting online since 2400 baud, reports of my death are greatly exaggerated. We are respectfully agreeing to see the outcome of this, why struggle?
 
Great post, thanks for sharing the Venn diagram. I’m in the middle too.

...

Contrasting “life” and “the economy” is unreasonable. The economy is life sustaining, life enabling.

Only the living can sustain the economy.
 
The USA was built on a system of free enterprise. Capitalism built the great place it is today and sustains us. I see no way we can NOT open up, that’s just not possible. Lockdowns and big-government handouts might be a short term relief but are just not sustainable in a democratic free enterprise system. As we move back toward a free and open society, personal responsibility will be the key to rebuilding, The Government cannot save us, be we can save ourselves. Be safe!
 
All I know, is that hospitals are getting massively crushed financially by the "lockdowns" ... huge layoffs, all across the country, can't be good for long term health outcomes.
I can't speak to that, but I've been following NY Gov. Cuomo, one of the first businesses lifted from the shut-down or Pause as he calls it, is allowing the small hospitals to perform elective surgery, in areas that they can maintain a 70% or less bed use capacity. I expect, that will be a pattern across the country.

Overall, this will be a learning experience, and an awakening experience. Hopefully it will hit the 20-40 y/o generation and be a reminder for the 60-90 generation. We need to build, and buy American. Perhaps one of the most memorable statements I remember was one made by Admiral Yamamoto of Japan in the movie "Tora! Tora! Tora!" It depicted the bombing or US Pearl Harbor. "I am afraid that we have awakened a sleeping giant!" He was educated here in the US and was aware of our manufacturing capabilities.

Personally I was stunned to learn that many of our drugs are manufactured in China.

I've expressed my concerns over the years that so many of our machine shops have closed.

IMO we need to become independent.
 
I can't speak to that, but I've been following NY Gov. Cuomo, one of the first businesses lifted from the shut-down or Pause as he calls it, is allowing the small hospitals to perform elective surgery, in areas that they can maintain a 70% or less bed use capacity. I expect, that will be a pattern across the country.

Overall, this will be a learning experience, and an awakening experience. Hopefully it will hit the 20-40 y/o generation and be a reminder for the 60-90 generation. We need to build, and buy American. Perhaps one of the most memorable statements I remember was one made by Admiral Yamamoto of Japan in the movie "Tora! Tora! Tora!" It depicted the bombing or US Pearl Harbor. "I am afraid that we have awakened a sleeping giant!" He was educated here in the US and was aware of our manufacturing capabilities.

Personally I was stunned to learn that many of our drugs are manufactured in China.

I've expressed my concerns over the years that so many of our machine shops have closed.

IMO we need to become independent.

Economic intertwining is a topic for another day. We are not going back to mfg. Nobody wants to work at the sock factory anymore, and you would not want to pay the prices for socks if they did.
 
Next to impossible, to compare the US to other countries, and NYC metro area ( a few square miles) has a similar population to the entire country of Canada!

I think the US did about 20 million tests, about one third of the population of Italy?

Your posts are typically VERY thoughtful and insightful, but I am missing the point of your post.
Please explain more fully.
Poppy

It's to stop using gross numbers at all. Ratios and rates are the only thing that allow _any_ sort of reasonable comparison between states, communities, countries, etc.

We will nitpick beam patterns, color temp, and reflector design to death but we are trying to talk intelligently about a complex topic using gross numbers?

Look at the thoughtful link I provided. The US has done ~8 million test to date. We are barely middle of the pack in testing RATE.
 
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... everything is opening, the thing that I have been arguing for is not going to come to pass. We are going to see the what happens with the full on states-only business-first approach ...

I disagree. People, even those here in MS, are really starting to make changes in their daily lives. Yes, some will act stupidly when the restrictions are lifted, but those folks acted poorly regardless.

Fact: we cannot leave the lockdown in place for long enough to get a vaccine, assuming one is coming. Clearly, work has to resume at some point. It's all a big crap sandwich... just a question of which end you want to take a bite from.
 
“Everything is opening up”. ??? That’s some hyperbole.

Anyways, Yes, it is very easy to tell others to “just follow the rules” (read: stay home) when you don’t have to abide by the same rules (read: essential worker with steady income). The guy worried about the mortgage and food on the table and keeping the internet paid for so his kids can take their online school classes while his business dissolves in front of him probably has a different view of how easy or difficult it is to “follow the rules”.
 
Let's not forget folks that we all come from different backgrounds, different life experiences and different circumstances which influence us in how we form our opinions.

Now we all know about opinions, they are like a$$holes, we've all got one!

Personally I don't like statistics, coming from a background of having dealt with violent deaths over many years, I've seen the families affected and torn apart by their loss. So for me the real numbers of deaths is multiplied in the number of others that are truly affected by each individual loss. Statistics are easier to ignore.

It's also far too early for statistics to show how individual countries have done to protect either their population and/or their economy because all of the different countries are at different stages in the pandemic. When this is all over will be the time to analyse the data to show the best course of action to fight similar future threats.

It will also be of benefit to humanity, as a whole, if different countries take different actions, so that when it is all over then statistics will show the most balanced course of action to protect both the population and the economy, when of course we know the lasting effects on the economy.

This forum is obviously USA based and the vast majority of the member are from the USA so as an outsider I have two views of the USA reopening, on one hand I'm thinking 'please don't do it too soon' and on the other hand I'm thinking 'if it's what the majority wants then give it a go and we'll all learn from the experience'.

Whatever happens I hope that you are all able to do what you believe is best for you and yours.
 
The United States is so large and diverse, that different states may take different approaches, and of course with different outcomes.

None of the decisions involved are easy or clear, at this point in time, despite the "certainty" of many posting in this thread.
 
With that said Archi, diverse discussions are also a must. Sometimes discussions can get sideways and become debates or even worse……arguments. But nonetheless are still a neccessity for a diverse populace to remain diverse. We at CPF talk about flashlights and how if everybody liked the same kind how devoid the flashlight world would be of variety.

Same applies in this thread. Now if in fact at the end of say post I dunno, 4683 a winner is declared and not only America but the entire free world had to live with an outcome dictated by this thread……well bring on the gloves. But it's nothing more than a bunch of members sharing thoughts about a novel virus that has in many ways changed each of our lives in one way or another.

I know some of the posters personally and get visuals of veins poking out of their temples as they retort to some statements made. Heck sometimes my bp rises too. But to quote a typical American Senator "even though I disagree with my friend across the aisle I do respect their rights to have that opinion".

While saying that I also appreciate the time the staff here takes from their day to referee this thing as needed.

Those are the views of one person here now that the situation seems to have turned from predictions of dead people by the score to "hmmm, maybe it wasn't so bad after all". Now many just want to return to normal. As normal as reasonable while the virus still spreads. It's the what is reasonable part where the discussion largely is right now.

I watched a video about the so-called origins of this thing. Eh, I'd say parts seemed logical. Perhaps even true. Lots of speculation is still floating around. Some facts may never be known. But it did speak of some pretty slack situations in a laboratory where some pretty bad bugs were being studied. One scientist coined "bat woman" seemed to be concerned with viruses jumping from bats to humans may be the genisis in the whole mess. I saw that and thought "yeah I never did trust Commisioner Gordans kid, now look at what she did.

It seems it was not people eating bats, or anything to do with a fish market beyond some sick folks shopping there early in the epidemic. Right now it looks like it was simply an accidental release that may have happened at some point anyway if humans came in contact with a breed of bat in a remote part of China. Perhaps it had already wiped out a small populace in said remote area and bat woman was trying to understand why. It does not at this point seem as though anybody was like "mwew ah ah I'll show these people" or anything nepharious. Just "oops, uh oh"…… afterall scientists still aren't sure where the Spanish flu really started. A pig farm in Kansas, or from a bat in China or either.
 
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Johnnyh- Outstanding point re: Personal Responsibility. I had to capitalize it, it's that big a point. We've had it drummed into our heads for months how bad this can be. If you're breathing in the US, you've had it beat into your subconcious. People will either take precautions or they won't. Voluntary compliance. There's nobody to "enforce" the guidelines. My local Big Orange home center yesterday- signs all over the cattle chute to go into the store requiring masks, and encouraging distancing. Employees with masks pulled down to just cover their mouths, or pulled completely down onto their necks. You want to be like that? Go ahead. When you get sick, I don't want to hear it. My stepson- Hopped in his car last week because New York was "violating his constitutional rights" and drove to his father's place in Florida. No mask or gloves, finger in the air. They were stopping all out of state traffic entering Florida. Fill out this paperwork, where are you coming from, where are you going, you have to isolate for two weeks once in state... First morning? Shopping at Publix and Walmart. I have ZERO sympathy if he gets sick. People can congregate at the chain grocery stores, home improvement stores, and handle cash all day at the drive throughs and take food made by other people? Open it all up and let people earn a paycheck again with reasonable precautions if they choose to. Let thise who want to participate do so. Same with thise who choose not to or choose to exercise precautions.
 
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I'll throw this out there... SH- One of your big sticking points seems to be "A National Response." Put your President hat on for a minute and tell me what YOU would do, how you would pay for it, and how you'd enforce it in the United States.
 
Good points made by @nbp, including this: " Any one who wishes may continue to live a Safer At Home lifestyle as long as they wish."

@scout24: We have a mask requirement for meetings at work. Everyone starts the meeting wearing one, but by the end, half the people have them hanging around their neck. WTH???
 
I'll throw this out there... SH- One of your big sticking points seems to be "A National Response." Put your President hat on for a minute and tell me what YOU would do, how you would pay for it, and how you'd enforce it in the United States.

Well, when we tried to shut everything down initially the president was called a racist and told it wouldn’t work. So I would like to hear how anything else could have been done as well.
 
.... None of the decisions involved are easy or clear, at this point in time, despite the "certainty" of many posting in this thread.

With that said Archi, diverse discussions are also a must. Sometimes discussions can get sideways and become debates or even worse……arguments. But nonetheless are still a neccessity for a diverse populace to remain diverse....

I think you may have mistaken one of my points, or perhaps I did not express myself clearly enough above.

Diverse discussion is fine, excellent, and interesting, encouraged even. I enjoy considering viewpoints differing from my own, because I'm already pretty familiar with my position on things.

The tone of "I'm right and you're wrong" taken on occasion by posters here, is the issue.

If the necessary decisions were simple and obvious, they would be widely accepted and there would likely be no debate at all.

And some of the more "extreme" forms of this attitude are no longer visible in this thread :poof: :grin2:

Anyway, please everyone try to remain respectful and considerate of each other, whether or not they agree with your own strongly held beliefs.
 
Johnnyh- Outstanding point re: Personal Responsibility. I had to capitalize it, it's that big a point. We've had it drummed into our heads for months how bad this can be. If you're breathing in the US, you've had it beat into your subconcious. People will either take precautions or they won't. Voluntary compliance. There's nobody to "enforce" the guidelines. My local Big Orange home center yesterday- signs all over the cattle chute to go into the store requiring masks, and encouraging distancing. Employees with masks pulled down to just cover their mouths, or pulled completely down onto their necks. You want to be like that? Go ahead. When you get sick, I don't want to hear it. My stepson- Hopped in his car last week because New York was "violating his constitutional rights" and drove to his father's place in Florida. No mask or gloves, finger in the air. They were stopping all out of state traffic entering Florida. Fill out this paperwork, where are you coming from, where are you going, you have to isolate for two weeks once in state... First morning? Shopping at Publix and Walmart. I have ZERO sympathy if he gets sick. People can congregate at the chain grocery stores, home improvement stores, and handle cash all day at the drive throughs and take food made by other people? Open it all up and let people earn a paycheck again with reasonable precautions if they choose to. Let thise who want to participate do so. Same with thise who choose not to or choose to exercise precautions.

I worry more about the people those no mask folks breath on more than the no mask folks.

It’s my understanding the mask you wear protects others more than yourself.
 
Archi I think I understood your point. It's why I mentioned 3 aspects. Discussion, debate and argument. An old Elvis Costello tune called "two little Hitlers" was about arguing. As in each other tying to pose their will on the other.

I do see some"nope I'm right" aspects, sure. But in discussions it does happen at times. It's why I closed with the thanks for you guys keeping things on the rails.

Edit: about mid-way was once the close but I added more later.

So I'll close this post by repeating "thanks for taking the time to keep this thing on the rails".
 
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It's days late and dollars short to be worrying about deficit spending, such has it become the norm for generations now in good times and bad.
So the answer is give up caring? It doesn't have to be that way.

We are in the ongoing great human experiment. With so many variables, there's no telling how this will unfold. What we think as normal is absolutely totally mind boggling abnormal compared to human history before this eyeblink in time we have been living since the beginning of the industrial age. What we do know is that strong motivation, grit and steadfast pursuit of a goal that is greater than our own selfishness can take us forward to a world worth living for those who are yet to be. They will be of our blood, and they can have a good life, just as so many of us have had a good life. Be strong friends.
 
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