markdeerhunter
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 51
I currently own an HDS cr123, single aaa Peak Eiger, and have a Mallkoff single aa on order. So no, I like smaller lights.
Anyone else sick of cr123 and 1aa/1aaa lights?
- Thread starter cancow
- Start date
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It really depends on your use. If you need 1000+ lumens it's going to be pretty hard to do that with AA/AAA's or less than $10 of CR123's. These days you can get some pretty impressive lights if economy/space/weight is a concern that run AA/AAA.
That said it's hard to argue with the performance of CR123's vs AA/AAAs. There are some very small CR123 single cell lights now like the E15, that will do 110 lumens for 5+ hours. Even the newest AA lights, like the E12, LD12 will only do 130 lumens for 1.5 hours on a AA, so you get over 3x the runtime on a single CR123 than a AA. However, there's a reason why a good AAA/AA light always lives in my truck and work/field bags, it's cheap, small, and you can find batteries at any gas station. If you want something you can shove in a truck, bag etc. and work years later in all temperatures, lithium primaries are the only good option. It's also hard to argue with the pure economy of AA/AAA lights when you can buy 30 AA/AAA Rayovac batteries with a 10 year shelf life for $5.
As far as AA vs AAA, it seems like you don't really give up that much brightness/runtime with AAA options for pocket light use. For example the Fenix EO5 AAA runs 85 lumens for an hour, but the new E12 AA only gives you 130 lumens for 1.5 hours. Usually when people get into this size of light they are putting a lot of emphasis on size, and when you put it on your keychain etc. there's a big difference between a AA and AAA light and in the space additional cells take up. I agree it seems none of the companies really focus on great 1xAA lights, though there are some good 2-4 AA options. I've always thought a 2 AAA light where the cells were side by side instead of end to end would be an interesting format.
Around the house I love 18650's for the output, capacity, and the ability to recharge in a package not much bigger than a AA light, and not much more expensive, but there's no option to buy 18650's at local stores, no lithium primary 18650 option, and running 2-4 CR123's in those that accept them gets expensive fast. While you can find CR123's in most big stores these days the price is usually ridiculous. So they are perfect for an everyday use light where you know you'll be able to recharge it easily and frequently, or if you are willing to carry lots of CR123's for backups.
I also suspect that good or bad we are going to see a lot more non-removeable cell lights in the future for small lights and headlamps like the Surefire Sidekick, Nitecore Tip/Tube, etc. Even though their performance isn't much better than AA/AAA lights, the TIP for example can only run 150 lumens for 1.5 hours where several AA lights are in the 130 lumen range for the same time period. The advantage is since it's rechargeable you can get very short runtime but very high brightness options, and there's more flexibility in light body design. The downside is once it's dead, you are SOL until you can get somewhere to recharge it.
That said it's hard to argue with the performance of CR123's vs AA/AAAs. There are some very small CR123 single cell lights now like the E15, that will do 110 lumens for 5+ hours. Even the newest AA lights, like the E12, LD12 will only do 130 lumens for 1.5 hours on a AA, so you get over 3x the runtime on a single CR123 than a AA. However, there's a reason why a good AAA/AA light always lives in my truck and work/field bags, it's cheap, small, and you can find batteries at any gas station. If you want something you can shove in a truck, bag etc. and work years later in all temperatures, lithium primaries are the only good option. It's also hard to argue with the pure economy of AA/AAA lights when you can buy 30 AA/AAA Rayovac batteries with a 10 year shelf life for $5.
As far as AA vs AAA, it seems like you don't really give up that much brightness/runtime with AAA options for pocket light use. For example the Fenix EO5 AAA runs 85 lumens for an hour, but the new E12 AA only gives you 130 lumens for 1.5 hours. Usually when people get into this size of light they are putting a lot of emphasis on size, and when you put it on your keychain etc. there's a big difference between a AA and AAA light and in the space additional cells take up. I agree it seems none of the companies really focus on great 1xAA lights, though there are some good 2-4 AA options. I've always thought a 2 AAA light where the cells were side by side instead of end to end would be an interesting format.
Around the house I love 18650's for the output, capacity, and the ability to recharge in a package not much bigger than a AA light, and not much more expensive, but there's no option to buy 18650's at local stores, no lithium primary 18650 option, and running 2-4 CR123's in those that accept them gets expensive fast. While you can find CR123's in most big stores these days the price is usually ridiculous. So they are perfect for an everyday use light where you know you'll be able to recharge it easily and frequently, or if you are willing to carry lots of CR123's for backups.
I also suspect that good or bad we are going to see a lot more non-removeable cell lights in the future for small lights and headlamps like the Surefire Sidekick, Nitecore Tip/Tube, etc. Even though their performance isn't much better than AA/AAA lights, the TIP for example can only run 150 lumens for 1.5 hours where several AA lights are in the 130 lumen range for the same time period. The advantage is since it's rechargeable you can get very short runtime but very high brightness options, and there's more flexibility in light body design. The downside is once it's dead, you are SOL until you can get somewhere to recharge it.
Woods Walker
The Wood is cut, The Bacon is cooked, Now it’s tim
No. I am ok with them.
Swedpat
Flashlight Enthusiast
1AAA: good keychain light. 1AA and 1CR123: good pocket light. But they are often too small for outdoors use, especially with gloves on. Then 2AA, 2CR123/16650 and 18650 lights are to prefer. My standard night stand light is 4Sevens mini AA high CRI. Sometimes also some of my Zebralight SC52s and SC5w.
LeafSamurai
Enlightened
I love my CR123 lights and you can justify the cost by using RCR123 batteries which saves a lot in the long run. Most CR123 lights are compact and easy to EDC so I don't see a problem with them. If I need something more heavy duty, will use 18650s. I'm fine either way with 1aa/1aaa lights, as they are good backup lights for me. Plus, most good 1AA lights can take rechargeable 14500 batteries, which saves a lot as well.
Tachead
Flashlight Enthusiast
Zebralight has it's single, glaring flaw in that the driver is not constant current, and as a source of migraine in those susceptable, it is enough:
(stealing jon_slider's image, Zebralight on the far left)
Please avoid the weak and cruel argument "I don't care." Zebralight will abandon their pulsing schema and go fully constant current should it's customer base cease to ignore this. Once Zebralight does advance their drivers to fully, legitimately constant current on all modes, I can't see how they would not be "perfect." (except for their dirth of high cri emitter offerings)
The only ZL, that I am aware of, that doesn't use full constant current regulation is the SC5. Plus, even it doesn't use PWM. It simply lowers and raises the output and is not visible at all by the eye or with most normal visual tests. There has been no research that says this kind of regulation has any affect on migraines or any other condition. Again, it is not PWM and the output never turns off.
ZL has pretty much the most advanced and efficient drivers in the industry. They are also one of the smallest, lightest, and highest quality lights on the market. If you chose not to use them because one model uses a new form/variation of regulation that is not even detectable by the eye or most methods then you are missing out if you ask me.
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TinderBox (UK)
Flashlight Enthusiast
I prefer CR123 and 1AA and 1AAA flashlight as they are so small it`s easy to EDC them.
John.
John.
archimedes
Flashaholic
No, I am thrilled with the current variety of AA, AAA, and CR123A (single cell) torches ....
What I am kind of tired of, from a battery safety viewpoint at least, are multi-cell flashlights.
I remember when most all quality lights had to be at least 2x cells, and to get decent outputs sometimes required 6+ cells. M@gLite 7C ? SureFire M6 ?
With the improvement in emitters, drivers, and battery tech, we can now have single cell torches with both useful output and decent runtime.
There is currently a good selection of AAA and CR123A type flashlights (although more would be welcome of course) , but I would like to see better choices in the AA / 14500 range. And even moreso, I'd like to see additional new CR2 options
What I am kind of tired of, from a battery safety viewpoint at least, are multi-cell flashlights.
I remember when most all quality lights had to be at least 2x cells, and to get decent outputs sometimes required 6+ cells. M@gLite 7C ? SureFire M6 ?
With the improvement in emitters, drivers, and battery tech, we can now have single cell torches with both useful output and decent runtime.
There is currently a good selection of AAA and CR123A type flashlights (although more would be welcome of course) , but I would like to see better choices in the AA / 14500 range. And even moreso, I'd like to see additional new CR2 options
Climb14er
Enlightened
Zebralight has it's single, glaring flaw in that the driver is not constant current, and as a source of migraine in those susceptable, it is enough:
(stealing jon_slider's image, Zebralight on the far left)
Please avoid the weak and cruel argument "I don't care." Zebralight will abandon their pulsing schema and go fully constant current should it's customer base cease to ignore this. Once Zebralight does advance their drivers to fully, legitimately constant current on all modes, I can't see how they would not be "perfect." (except for their dirth of high cri emitter offerings)
Never noticed at all, with three of my ZL'S this so called pulsing, migraine causing whatever you call it. Not one time!
chillinn
Flashlight Enthusiast
Well, just to drive the point home, it is not necessarily true that what you can't see won't hurt you. I have never noticed at all, with three of my cars' exhaust, this so called poisonous gas, death causing, Carbon Monoxide, whatever you call it. Not one time!
Tachead
Flashlight Enthusiast
Lol, your making a mountain out of a mole hill man. It is only one ZL model that is not fully current regulated, it is not even true PWM, and has zero effect on most people. Did you know that almost every household LED on the market has PWM or flicker of one kind or another? Same with the screen you are currently looking at. You make it sound like it's going to kill you or something lol. Even true PWM(which is not found on any ZL) has no effect on most people, especially if it is high frequency. Slow frequently PWM can be annoying for sure and can cause some people to have headaches(in very rare cases) but, again this is not what ZL has.
gurdygurds
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2014
- Messages
- 1,993
How about flashlights in general? Anyone sick of flashlights altogether? I mean come on.......a tube with a bulb or an led stuck on the end that's powered by a battery and makes light?
ven
Flashaholic
Never!!!!!!:nana:
I like my different length sticks and different size bulbs
I like my different length sticks and different size bulbs
chillinn
Flashlight Enthusiast
ZL drivers across the models are very similar. ZL doesn't use PWM. However, the lower modes of each group are not constant current, and it has been revealed they use a pulsing scheme that only differs from PWM in that the emitter does not drop to zero. The SC5 certainly is not CC on all modes, neither is the SC62, neither are the SC30 and H31. It is thus likely that all ZL drivers utilize this pulsing scheme, as it would not make any sense for ZL to have so many different types of drivers. They are all in the ZL family.
selfbuilt's published oscilloscope tests bear this out (selfbuilt doesn't always share his oscilliscope tests, esp. if he has been hoodwinked into believing the circuit is constant current by the odd pulsing data):
It is obvious from this test that whatever selfbuilt is detecting here, it is neither constant current nor analogue circuit noise, but an intentional scheme that rapidly lowers the brightness, and returns it to the regulated output, possibly for the purposes of extended runtime in a circuit that is less difficult to design and produce than a fully and legitimately constant current circuit.
Further, the argument that "something can't be seen, therefore it is not harmful" has already been obliterated as nonsense. Besides my carbon monoxide example, which is sufficient as a single counter-argument to defeat "I can't see it, so it doesn't matter!" here is another counter-argument: you can't see UV-C light, yet enough exposure will damage your eyes enough to cause blindness. It doesn't help your case, nor does it help anyone's understanding of the existing problem to repeat a failed argument once it is defeated. It doesn't get any more defeated than this.
There is a mountain of evidence that migraines can be triggered by flickering light, whether conscious of it or not, and whether it is visually detectable or not. Though migraines are not entirely understood, this does not diminish the case studies of those that have experienced them. Not everyone will experience a migraine in their lives, some will have a few, and some will have enough to have a good idea of what triggers them. Speaking from personal experience, I know that PWM can cause migraine with enough exposure. I also know that ZL pulsing schema can also cause headaches and trigger the more serious migraine, and it took me a couple months to figure it out because, like many, I assumed the drivers were CC because that is all anyone ever said, including selfbuilt, so I personally incorrectly had eliminated my ZL as a cause. Eventually, with the help of jon_slider and his smear images, I discovered the treachery, and I was honestly depressed about it because of how great ZL models are. I wouldn't lie to you Tachead, I have no agenda with ZL, I am not competing with them in any way by trying to hawk my own CC drivers as competition. I am ashamed to admit that I do not manufacture any such thing, but only wish.
I have already praised ZL as likely the most advanced flashlight on the planet. The single major flaw I find with ZL drivers is that they are not CC, even if they do not use PWM. A less important flaw, IMO, is that there are no ZL emitters, as beautiful as they are, that approach the color rendition of high CRI emitters now produced by Nichia and Cree.
I'm not sure what you and others stand to gain by attempting to sweep under the rug the simple fact that ZL drivers are not constant current. I admire their work, immensely, but no matter how much I love something, I'm not going to attempt to deceive others about the facts as I have experienced them. Loyalty is certainly a virtue, but honesty is a far greater virtue, especially and primarily honesty with oneself.
Tachead
Flashlight Enthusiast
Most research on migraines is with strobing light that fully turns on and off not light that only dims. And, it is usually low frequently strobe to boot. Also, only a very, very small portion of humans are even susceptible to any ill effects or migraines caused by strobing light. You also don't appear to know what kind of regulation they are using or how that may effect anyone. One oscilloscope reading is far from proof of anything and to draw the conclusion that it may affect anyone in any way is a bit presumptuous.ZL drivers across the models are very similar. ZL doesn't use PWM. However, the lower modes of each group are not constant current, and it has been revealed they use a pulsing scheme that only differs from PWM in that the emitter does not drop to zero. The SC5 certainly is not CC on all modes, neither is the SC62, neither are the SC30 and H31. It is thus likely that all ZL drivers utilize this pulsing scheme, as it would not make any sense for ZL to have so many different types of drivers. They are all in the ZL family.
selfbuilt's published oscilloscope tests bear this out (selfbuilt doesn't always share his oscilliscope tests, esp. if he has been hoodwinked into believing the circuit is constant current by the odd pulsing data):
It is obvious from this test that whatever selfbuilt is detecting here, it is neither constant current nor analogue circuit noise, but an intentional scheme that rapidly lowers the brightness, and returns it to the regulated output, possibly for the purposes of extended runtime in a circuit that is less difficult to design and produce than a fully and legitimately constant current circuit.
Further, the argument that "something can't be seen, therefore it is not harmful" has already been obliterated as nonsense. Besides my carbon monoxide example, which is sufficient as a single counter-argument to defeat "I can't see it, so it doesn't matter!" here is another counter-argument: you can't see UV-C light, yet enough exposure will damage your eyes enough to cause blindness. It doesn't help your case, nor does it help anyone's understanding of the existing problem to repeat a failed argument once it is defeated. It doesn't get any more defeated than this.
There is a mountain of evidence that migraines can be triggered by flickering light, whether conscious of it or not, and whether it is visually detectable or not. Though migraines are not entirely understood, this does not diminish the case studies of those that have experienced them. Not everyone will experience a migraine in their lives, some will have a few, and some will have enough to have a good idea of what triggers them. Speaking from personal experience, I know that PWM can cause migraine with enough exposure. I also know that ZL pulsing schema can also cause headaches and trigger the more serious migraine, and it took me a couple months to figure it out because, like many, I assumed the drivers were CC because that is all anyone ever said, including selfbuilt, so I personally incorrectly had eliminated my ZL as a cause. Eventually, with the help of jon_slider and his smear images, I discovered the treachery, and I was honestly depressed about it because of how great ZL models are. I wouldn't lie to you Tachead, I have no agenda with ZL, I am not competing with them in any way by trying to hawk my own CC drivers as competition. I am ashamed to admit that I do not manufacture any such thing, but only wish.
I have already praised ZL as likely the most advanced flashlight on the planet. The single major flaw I find with ZL drivers is that they are not CC, even if they do not use PWM. A less important flaw, IMO, is that there are no ZL emitters, as beautiful as they are, that approach the color rendition of high CRI emitters now produced by Nichia and Cree.
I'm not sure what you and others stand to gain by attempting to sweep under the rug the simple fact that ZL drivers are not constant current. I admire their work, immensely, but no matter how much I love something, I'm not going to attempt to deceive others about the facts as I have experienced them. Loyalty is certainly a virtue, but honesty is a far greater virtue, especially and primarily honesty with oneself.
You are exposed to flicker everyday. The monitor you are currently reading on is flickering constantly as is all the ambient lighting in your house if you use any LED lightbulbs. Your TV probably is as well. Even almost every modern Christmas light you look at is flickering.
ZL doesn't claim in their literature anything about constant current so, I am not sure where your conspiracy theories are coming from.
The bottom line is ZL has pretty much the most advanced and efficient drivers in the industry. This "flicker", as you call it, that can only be seen on an oscilloscope, is far from PWM and can't even be captured by most measuring devices or techniques. I don't see why you are making such a big deal of it. Maybe you have a little too much time on your hands? Why don't you just enjoy the lights as you seemed to before you knew about this insignificant detail. If you can't, just move on and buy a different brand, there are plenty of other options.
night.hoodie
Enlightened
+1
in reply to the op , for me not really, the more cr123 size lights the better as far as i'm concerned. The ability to edc and put them inside a jacket pocket etc just makes them too handy not to have . I have various olight smini rainbow,s1 regular and titanium and s10r, as well as an Nitecore EC11 and each of them have proved their worth at various times with the added advantage of being extra compact.
