Cyber attack EMP event/attack discussion Not Political

Poppy

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

I haven't given EMP damages from nuclear attack, or from the SUN, much thought. I do however have a transistor radio with the 9V battery removed, wrapped in aluminum foil. It is currently out in my metal shed.

I wonder... does a metal shed act like a faraday cage?
 

PhotonWrangler

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

I wonder... does a metal shed act like a faraday cage?

If it's completely sealed and grounded, yes. Most sheds will have several spots that can leak EMI/RFI though, including door seals, roof-to-wall joints, etc.
 

idleprocess

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

I haven't given EMP damages from nuclear attack, or from the SUN, much thought. I do however have a transistor radio with the 9V battery removed, wrapped in aluminum foil. It is currently out in my metal shed.

I wonder... does a metal shed act like a faraday cage?

I believe that the present school of thought is that small portable electronics will probably fare well in an EMP event since they're not connected to the long antenna that is the electrical grid. Heck, the one time that test results were performed on modern cars (i.e. ECUs and fuel injection) all but one worked afterwards - seems that hardening automotive electronics against their own alternators makes them resistant to EMP-induced transients.
 

PhotonWrangler

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

...seems that hardening automotive electronics against their own alternators makes them resistant to EMP-induced transients.

Yeah, the engine compartment is an electrically noisy environment, not only from the alternator but also those continuous, rapid high voltage pulses coming from the spark plug system. It makes sense that sensitive electronics like ECMs are hardened against these EM sources.
 

Hooked on Fenix

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

Looks like we can add another way the power can get knocked out. Some kids in Contra Costa, California were playing stick ball with a flaming tennis ball that started a fire. The fire blew up some nearby propane tanks and vehicles which were by a high voltage transmission line. The power was briefly out for about 1/2 an hour for 8,700 residents. Just goes to show you, if you play with fire, you won't get to play with anything requiring electricity until power is restored.
 

InvisibleFrodo

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An incandescent powered by disposable cells will do quite well in the EMP scenario, I believe.

I find it a bit odd in a way that something as critical as the pipeline isn't on a closed system that doesn't connect to the internet. Computers doing something that sensitive, the the only way to make it impossible to hack into is to make it so it isn't connected.
 
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turbodog

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An incandescent powered by disposable cells will do quite well in the EMP scenario, I believe.

I find it a bit odd in a way that something as critical as the pipeline isn't on a closed system that doesn't connect to the internet. Computers doing something that sensitive, the the only way to make it impossible to hack into is to make it so it isn't connected.

My reading is that the pipeline control itself was NOT compromised, but all the other stuff was. Carnage was so widespread they shut pipe down out of caution.
 

orbital

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My reading is that the pipeline control itself was NOT compromised, but all the other stuff was. Carnage was so widespread they shut pipe down out of caution.

+

And yet, it's easy for some dirtbag junior high school kid to spoof an IP or phone number. Not to mention buying malware on the dark web.

One has to ask, who's allowing that to still be possible?!
 

orbital

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I am serious.

Moonshine & spoofing IP/phone are two very different things.
 

turbodog

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I am serious.

Moonshine & spoofing IP/phone are two very different things.

Sorry. Don't think you understand the technology. If you can come up with a method that disallows that (while not opening up a DOS vulnerability) while making it compatible, cost effective, etc... then be my guest.
 

orbital

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'cost effective'
there are inherent issues with internet/telecommunications, phishing, spoofing, denial-o-service, :: malware, the ridiculous ease of anonymity.

So we maybe become reactive, not proactive, because it has to be cost effective to do anything. Right?

I don't need to write code to see the problems.
'Our' internet grew unimaginably fast without any genuine control... maybe intentionally



..Anyway, this is a step https://thehill.com/changing-americ...e/555338-feds-to-set-first-ever-cybersecurity
 
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turbodog

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+

'cost effective'
there are inherent issues with internet/telecommunications, phishing, spoofing, denial-o-service, :: malware, the ridiculous ease of anonymity.

So we maybe become reactive, not proactive, because it has to be cost effective to do anything. Right?

I don't need to write code to see the problems.
'Our' internet grew unimaginably fast without any genuine control... maybe intentionally



..Anyway, this is a step https://thehill.com/changing-americ...e/555338-feds-to-set-first-ever-cybersecurity

That's codifying existing best practices. Does not stop IP spoofing, nor any other malfeasance. Saying we can stop attacks of this nature is like saying we can stop people from lying. We can publish regs & best practices and make it illegal, but we can't stop it.

For core infrastructure I'm fully onboard with it being OFFLINE as attacks will inevitably succeed.

I've been in IT for almost 30 years. You will not stop this. And the recent spate of targeted attacks I have seen have been truly impressive and scary. In short, secure your email like your life depends on it.
 

Hooked on Fenix

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Re: Cyber attack EMP attack discussion Not Political

Looks like we can add another way the power can get knocked out. Some kids in Contra Costa, California were playing stick ball with a flaming tennis ball that started a fire. The fire blew up some nearby propane tanks and vehicles which were by a high voltage transmission line. The power was briefly out for about 1/2 an hour for 8,700 residents. Just goes to show you, if you play with fire, you won't get to play with anything requiring electricity until power is restored.

It's better to see it for yourself. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJOMxiUokU
 

idleprocess

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That's codifying existing best practices. Does not stop IP spoofing, nor any other malfeasance. Saying we can stop attacks of this nature is like saying we can stop people from lying. We can publish regs & best practices and make it illegal, but we can't stop it.

For core infrastructure I'm fully onboard with it being OFFLINE as attacks will inevitably succeed.

I've been in IT for almost 30 years. You will not stop this. And the recent spate of targeted attacks I have seen have been truly impressive and scary. In short, secure your email like your life depends on it.

Agree. Working for an ISP I have administrator-level access to nodes that are the single point of failure link for dozens to tens of thousands of people in addition to numerous OSS or OAM provisioning automation / element management applications. I am extremely cognizant of what I click on using the work machine and even the work phone - phishing e-mails are a near-weekly occurrence.

Security is a trade-off as well - too little and you invariably get hacked, too much and nothing gets done on time. Unfortunately the speed of business precludes air-gapped networks for most functions - and those that exist tend to have USB ports a-plenty shuffling packets via sneakernet, often with mere seconds of added latency. There are however firewalls everywhere in the typical enterprise network, such is the reality of de-perimeterisation - endpoints are hardened, the data center itself is segmented, and devices at work locations are not treated as fully trusted by default.

There is an unfortunate perfunctory aspect to IT security as well - short password reset intervals, password complexity requirements that all but guarantee people write them down on sticky notes posted to their monitors, guarding against movie plot scenarios unlikely to happen in the real world, nix plans Because Reasons™ without offering viable alternatives - that do nothing, inhibit business operations, and can make the business less secure as users or even entire organizations work around security policy.
 

turbodog

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Agree. Working for an ISP I have administrator-level access to nodes that are the single point of failure link for dozens to tens of thousands of people in addition to numerous OSS or OAM provisioning automation / element management applications. I am extremely cognizant of what I click on using the work machine and even the work phone - phishing e-mails are a near-weekly occurrence.

Security is a trade-off as well - too little and you invariably get hacked, too much and nothing gets done on time. Unfortunately the speed of business precludes air-gapped networks for most functions - and those that exist tend to have USB ports a-plenty shuffling packets via sneakernet, often with mere seconds of added latency. There are however firewalls everywhere in the typical enterprise network, such is the reality of de-perimeterisation - endpoints are hardened, the data center itself is segmented, and devices at work locations are not treated as fully trusted by default.

There is an unfortunate perfunctory aspect to IT security as well - short password reset intervals, password complexity requirements that all but guarantee people write them down on sticky notes posted to their monitors, guarding against movie plot scenarios unlikely to happen in the real world, nix plans Because Reasons™ without offering viable alternatives - that do nothing, inhibit business operations, and can make the business less secure as users or even entire organizations work around security policy.

Can sum all that up with this:

https://xkcd.com/538/

:eek:
 
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