Modern. 380 rounds vs 9mm
- Thread starter raggie33
- Start date
Robocop
Mammoth Killer
Most of todays police related handgun training is focused on 25 yards for a maximum distance. We have a current state required course of 50 rounds and only 12 of these rounds are from the 25 yard line. The remainder all are from the 15 yard line and in. The point with this is that in actual real world use most encounters are closer in and no officer is really going to engage a target at 50 yards with a handgun. Of course it may happen in certain situations however it is rare. This is why we also train with a rifle and also have a minimum standard involving much greater distances required with a rifle. My personal duty rifle is an IWI Tavor TAR-21 and yes it is much more rifle than I will ever need however I can shoot if fast and accurate. It was also a gift from my wife and yes I have an amazing wife who gives really good gifts (smile)
The point here is that in actual real life defense situations you can be more than prepared with pretty much any decent firearm and basic training. Of course this training should include certain safety practices that are always followed. Red dots, ported weapons, compensators, custom triggers, custom barrels...etc are all wonderful to have for competition shooters however again in real life defense not really needed.
Personally for me I believe that learning to shoot accurate while shooting fast is the best. You can have 9 rounds of 45 cal hollow points and if you miss or shoot to slow it is pointless. Pick a round you can control during fast strings of fire and a round you can keep on target. My previous 40 cal weapon was a handful and although I was on target with it I was not nearly as fast as I am with a modern 9mm. The difference is small however there is a very distinct difference. I may could get 2 rounds center mass in 1 second where I get three in that same time span with my current set up. In real life that one round on target could be a game changer.
This will sound crazy to some however when I first started I was actually issued a Smith and Wesson model 10 revolver. I did have to qualify with this weapon however was offered a chance to carry something else if I paid for it and also qualified with it. This is when I chose the USP 40 and stuck with that my entire career. I hated to admit it however the revolver was easier to qualify with. Of course it was not nearly as cool looking however it was easier to shoot. Over time I became excellent with that big old USP 40 yet I never forgot that reliable old model 10 revolver.
On a side note I have a story about that H&K and why I have two of the USP 40s that I will never part with. I bought that 40 cal in the academy and as such had 6 months of training with it prior to ever starting duty use. During that 6 months we shot at least 1500 rounds and every box of ammo was logged. After that time we had to qualify twice yearly with minimum standards and extra combat courses thrown in each time. I did not count the rounds however I shot thousands of rounds yearly in training. Again every box of ammo was logged on my service record. Fast forward 17 years later and I had completed several advanced classes , as well as required yearly training, with that single firearm and each class involved thousands of rounds again all logged.
I had no failures with that weapon however decided now to freshen the gun up with new mag springs, guide rod and spring, trigger assembly you know just routine preventative servicing. Again it had never failed however did "feel" a little slower. H&K advised me to send the gun in for the work advising as it was a duty weapon they would cover the cost. I was amazed at their customer service as the weapon was well used and I was prepared to pay for any service. So I sent the weapon in and I also had to send my service record. I never did the math in my head however when I pulled the record I was blown away. The record showed that weapon had 28 thousand (yes thousand) rounds through it with no malfunctions.
I was offered a city gun to carry while it was away however I chose to buy another USP 40 as my duty holster was for that weapon and I was familiar with that weapon. I did not want to change it up so I just bought an identical weapon. H&K freshened up my old one and sent it back (again free of charge) so I now have two. This is why I am an H&K fan boy to this day as in my personal experience that old USP 40 was a reliable tool that never failed me. I did 22 years with that very weapon and it is in my bug out bag today. The second one stays on my bedside table. If it was allowed at my current dept I would still carry one. I switched over due to the policy requiring this however one good thing is that I can actually keep my current duty weapon for free when I retire again.
The point here is that in actual real life defense situations you can be more than prepared with pretty much any decent firearm and basic training. Of course this training should include certain safety practices that are always followed. Red dots, ported weapons, compensators, custom triggers, custom barrels...etc are all wonderful to have for competition shooters however again in real life defense not really needed.
Personally for me I believe that learning to shoot accurate while shooting fast is the best. You can have 9 rounds of 45 cal hollow points and if you miss or shoot to slow it is pointless. Pick a round you can control during fast strings of fire and a round you can keep on target. My previous 40 cal weapon was a handful and although I was on target with it I was not nearly as fast as I am with a modern 9mm. The difference is small however there is a very distinct difference. I may could get 2 rounds center mass in 1 second where I get three in that same time span with my current set up. In real life that one round on target could be a game changer.
This will sound crazy to some however when I first started I was actually issued a Smith and Wesson model 10 revolver. I did have to qualify with this weapon however was offered a chance to carry something else if I paid for it and also qualified with it. This is when I chose the USP 40 and stuck with that my entire career. I hated to admit it however the revolver was easier to qualify with. Of course it was not nearly as cool looking however it was easier to shoot. Over time I became excellent with that big old USP 40 yet I never forgot that reliable old model 10 revolver.
On a side note I have a story about that H&K and why I have two of the USP 40s that I will never part with. I bought that 40 cal in the academy and as such had 6 months of training with it prior to ever starting duty use. During that 6 months we shot at least 1500 rounds and every box of ammo was logged. After that time we had to qualify twice yearly with minimum standards and extra combat courses thrown in each time. I did not count the rounds however I shot thousands of rounds yearly in training. Again every box of ammo was logged on my service record. Fast forward 17 years later and I had completed several advanced classes , as well as required yearly training, with that single firearm and each class involved thousands of rounds again all logged.
I had no failures with that weapon however decided now to freshen the gun up with new mag springs, guide rod and spring, trigger assembly you know just routine preventative servicing. Again it had never failed however did "feel" a little slower. H&K advised me to send the gun in for the work advising as it was a duty weapon they would cover the cost. I was amazed at their customer service as the weapon was well used and I was prepared to pay for any service. So I sent the weapon in and I also had to send my service record. I never did the math in my head however when I pulled the record I was blown away. The record showed that weapon had 28 thousand (yes thousand) rounds through it with no malfunctions.
I was offered a city gun to carry while it was away however I chose to buy another USP 40 as my duty holster was for that weapon and I was familiar with that weapon. I did not want to change it up so I just bought an identical weapon. H&K freshened up my old one and sent it back (again free of charge) so I now have two. This is why I am an H&K fan boy to this day as in my personal experience that old USP 40 was a reliable tool that never failed me. I did 22 years with that very weapon and it is in my bug out bag today. The second one stays on my bedside table. If it was allowed at my current dept I would still carry one. I switched over due to the policy requiring this however one good thing is that I can actually keep my current duty weapon for free when I retire again.
I say the same thing about children and their parents. There are many people out there that have no business having offspring.
JimIslander
Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2012
- Messages
- 798
We have constitutional open and concealed carry. Free state. ;-)
380 applied to the face, pelvis, center mass will get a significant response.
alpg88
Flashaholic
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,253
I carry a revolver, .357 snubby, used to carry G36 .45, but once I tried lcrx with long handle i was sold, so much more comfortable, and controllable. and split frame with plastic lower absorbs recoil, 158gr mag do not feel the same fired from this revolver compared to a J frame. I load it with critical defense rounds which do not kick as hard as full load .357. they are actually better for short barrel revolvers, cuz when I shoot full load 158gr. the fireball is spectacular, it also makes an awesome ring of fire coming out of the cylinder gap. As a civilian i see no need to large capacity, as research shows, self defense shootings in vast majority of cases follow 3-3-3 rule, 3 shots under 3 second within 3 yards, I do carry 5 extra rounds in a speed loader. but I doubt I'll have a chance to realod if shtf.
When I go to the range I put up a regular paper plate at 25 feet, and practise to shoot without using sights at all, just muscule memory. it is a lot harder than properly aiming, but at close distance, when you have seconds or less, you will not have time to aim, might not even get enough time to pull it out from under the clothes and point, that is another advenatage for revolver, it will function in such situation unlike a semi auto. All my buddies who carry have pistols, g43-43x, sw bodyguards and similar, i'm the only one with a revolver, and at the airsoft feild i'm the only 1 with an AKSU, everyone else have ARs, lol
When I go to the range I put up a regular paper plate at 25 feet, and practise to shoot without using sights at all, just muscule memory. it is a lot harder than properly aiming, but at close distance, when you have seconds or less, you will not have time to aim, might not even get enough time to pull it out from under the clothes and point, that is another advenatage for revolver, it will function in such situation unlike a semi auto. All my buddies who carry have pistols, g43-43x, sw bodyguards and similar, i'm the only one with a revolver, and at the airsoft feild i'm the only 1 with an AKSU, everyone else have ARs, lol
I hate my state's attitude.
TBH, the OC was while on duty only.
Hopefully, this all changes in the near future with the legislation being proposed in congress.
Its good that open carry is now legal in most states, but why would you want to open carry?
On the range, hunting or on rural private land I can see open carry but I don't understand the guy in walmart with his flip-flops open carrying.
I make an effort to always carry concealed in a way that no one can tell that I am carrying - just don't get the whole open carry in public mind set.
alpg88
Flashaholic
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,253
I do not think OC is a good idea either, not in public. Last summer I figured I'll try a carry fanny pack, which looks just like a regular fanny pack, but has a side access, mine has a regular kydex holster build into it, I liked it so much I always carry in it now. no problems when sitting down, nothing pokes into your groin, a lot easier to pull out while sitting, and with practice it does not take longer to get it out than from iwb. In the summer when you have only light clothes on, you do not need a heavy belts, nothing will print, if a shirt pulls up, it will not be exposed, even if you touch the pack you will not feel a distinctive shape of a weapon, it is not immediately apperent. plus I have my regular things in there, walet, phone, keys... So if I go to a place where guns are not allowed I just remove it, and still carry the rest of the stuff in it.
OMCHamlin
Newly Enlightened
I don't OC at all, unless I'm in the woods or field. I DO try and carry all the time, with the very private understanding that "concealed means concealed!" That means I prefer small and powerful. A lot of times, that's a Ruger LCP Max, with the 12 rd mag in a pocket holster with a shielding leather flap on he outside. Those are with Hornady JHPs. The gun has the manual safety and the leather pocket holster shields and protects the safety and mag release from accidental release.
I also JUST reacquired another Kahr PM9 at a local gun show, and that is beginning to replace the Max, even though it carries less ammo on board (6+1). It's pretty darn flat and concealable. I have op tested it with a fair assortment of muttley ammo, and ball and JHPs. The Kahr trigger in a good holster is safe enough to pocket carry, but it disappears in a little kydex IWB, so that works well too, for now.
I also JUST reacquired another Kahr PM9 at a local gun show, and that is beginning to replace the Max, even though it carries less ammo on board (6+1). It's pretty darn flat and concealable. I have op tested it with a fair assortment of muttley ammo, and ball and JHPs. The Kahr trigger in a good holster is safe enough to pocket carry, but it disappears in a little kydex IWB, so that works well too, for now.
JimIslander
Enlightened
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- Mar 4, 2012
- Messages
- 798
raggie33
*the raggedier*
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2003
- Messages
- 15,719
Back on the 80s in south florida i would understand bigger calibers omg the storys i was told about fols being pn pcp and going crazy and nothing could stop them. Not sure if pcp still exist .but i even saw storys on the shows cops they was like robots and tank
I have something like that. I got it for when I am wearing sweats in cooler weather. It is very small and dose not look like something you could even fit a gun in. I usually carry under a loose fitting T or sweat shirt so that no one can even see the fanny pack. I often leave it partially unzipped so that draw quickly much like drawing from a cross draw holster. Comfortable as long as I don't try to carry too much weight in it. I usually only carry a BG 2.0, a spare mag and maybe some ID and a light clipped to the belt strap.
Robocop
Mammoth Killer
If it
I never carried Wyatt Earp style however did fire both at the same time single handed. It was a blast to dump two magazines. Although it was very fun it was not very accurate.
If it would have been allowed I would have tried it at least once however my dept only allowed a 2nd weapon to be a small concealed back up. That USP was state of the art back then and even today I feel can still work well for duty use. The worst problem for me with the weapon was finding duty gear for it. It was hard to find a level III holster as well as night sights way back then. Also anything that had an H&K logo on it was way over priced. I bought several extra mags and it was very expensive. Also their was no weapon lights that fit their proprietary rails either.Did anyone else imagine @Robocop carrying both of his USP 40s Western-style while on duty? MAN! that would be BADASS!
I never carried Wyatt Earp style however did fire both at the same time single handed. It was a blast to dump two magazines. Although it was very fun it was not very accurate.
Our Sheriff's headwear -
I'm sorry but 5% is nothing. Well, practically nothing. It was a bone-headed decision that will cost the city millions of dollars during the next lawsuit involving an officer who was a bit too quick on the draw. Oh! Especially if the Plaintiff's lawyer knows about the history of NYPD-issued sidearms. He'll have a field day! Watch how quickly they go back to the heavier trigger-pull.
Considering the history of NYPD-issued revolvers from the past, a 12-pound trigger pull is actually very light.
Agree with you 1,000%.
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