Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control

[copperfox]

This is a terrific resource, thanks so much MrGman.
Do you have a ROP you could test? I'll bet that a ROP really is brighter on 2xLithium-ion than on 6xNiMh as most of us have witnessed; I'd just like to know by how much.

 

[MrGman]

This is a terrific resource, thanks so much MrGman.
Do you have a ROP you could test? I'll bet that a ROP really is brighter on 2xLithium-ion than on 6xNiMh as most of us have witnessed; I'd just like to know by how much.

Why would I want to test Really Old Pizza?

what is ROP? (that probably answers your question right there, doesn't it.)

 

[MrGman]

+1

I'd really like to see some popular SureFire flashlights such as: the new L1, E2L, E2DL, E1B, KL5A. The new Inova T2, T3, T4. All popular Dereelights and more incandescent lights as well. That would be sweet!

It takes time and money to do real science. You guys could probably come up with the money collectively, but I don't have the time to do all of these well. If it was just a quick reading in the IS and nothing more that might be possible. But I don't have hardly any interest in most of these lights and I don't want to have to keep paying return shipping and use my lunch hour to make trips to the post office to return lights. A few "key" lights of real interest and controversy would be sufficient.

What I will be interested is the new Lumens Factory D36 in the M90 Rattlesnake to see if its brigher and has better throw than D26 type pills.

I would want it with very light orange peel reflector and not a heavy OP texture pattern. But the weather has already started turning south and my choice of targets will blow away and get ruined in the rain. Beamshots of tree tops just don't do it for me (as you can probably tell).

We will figure something out later. G

 

[Hellbore]

It would sure be nice to see some actual lumens measurements from some of the current crop of budget DX lights with the SSC P7 emitters, the ones that make the ridiculous 900 lumen claim.

 

[Hellbore]

That Eagletac looks awesome, I wonder if they will ever make a 2x18650 version?

 

[copperfox]

ROP = "Roar Of the Pelican"

ROP is a maglite modification that uses one of the two #3854 "Big D" Pelican 6v bulbs being overdriven. The 3854-high bulb is approximately 700 real lumens and the 3854-low bulb is approximately 500 lumens (but obviously it depends on how much voltage you supply and the "sag" your cells experience). The standard ROP mod uses a 2D maglite, an aluminum reflector and glass window (as they are resistant to heat), and a 6AA->2D cell adapter in which you place 6 NiMH cells (usually LSD or high-current ones that can take the current draw). Some people (myself included) use two li-ion cells instead because they sag less, thus providing more light. The 3854-high can take about 8.5v before flashing and I believe the 3854-low bulb can take around 9v.

The reason I ask about the ROP is that is is a very common "first hotwire mod" among CPFers due to being both very bright and relatively inexpensive.

 

[thegeek]

Just wondering:

EagleTac T10C2: Cree XR-E Q5 inside

Draws 0,96 A on hight (2 fresh batteries = 6 V)
under load: 5,3 V
= 5,1 Watt from the batteries

Driver efficiency 90 %
= 4,6 Watt to the Led

Vf approx. 3,7 V (at 1.000 mA)
= 1.240 mA to the Led

Cree XR-E Q5 max. 114 lm at 350 mA
approx 250% at 1.240 mA
= 285 lm (emitter lm)

Relative Light Output approx. 85% at 100°C junction temperature
=242 lm (emitter lm)

minus some losses (reflector, lens) approx. 10%
--> 220 lm out of the front


(Article about efficiency: link)

If you look at the following test by jtr1963, and assume his specimen was fairly typical, it should skew your values a bit. Also, I believe fresh CR123's typically have a voltage slightly above 3 volts.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2170040&postcount=141

 

[MrGman]

ROP = "Roar Of the Pelican"

ROP is a maglite modification that uses one of the two #3854 "Big D" Pelican 6v bulbs being overdriven. The 3854-high bulb is approximately 700 real lumens and the 3854-low bulb is approximately 500 lumens (but obviously it depends on how much voltage you supply and the "sag" your cells experience). The standard ROP mod uses a 2D maglite, an aluminum reflector and glass window (as they are resistant to heat), and a 6AA->2D cell adapter in which you place 6 NiMH cells (usually LSD or high-current ones that can take the current draw). Some people (myself included) use two li-ion cells instead because they sag less, thus providing more light. The 3854-high can take about 8.5v before flashing and I believe the 3854-low bulb can take around 9v.

The reason I ask about the ROP is that is is a very common "first hotwire mod" among CPFers due to being both very bright and relatively inexpensive.

Don't have one, don't want one. Got the Malkoff Triple drop measuring over 700 lumens without any strange battery conversions. Have no interest in such a beast.
Sorry, G.

 

[LEDninja]

Thanks for getting these numbers.

Mag-LED 4D_____________50 (I assume torch lumens)
Mag-LED 4D_____________80 no reflector (I assume emitter lumens)
50/80=62% of emitter lumens getting out front.

I used to get pooh poohed a lot when I use 65% light transmission as a rule of thumb. Now I have the numbers to back me up.

The Fenix is about 80% efficient when the measured is compared to the spec numbers. Shows what a good reflector and AR coated optics can do.
I do notice quite a difference when I replaced my stock Mag lenses with AR coated UCL lenses.

 

[300winmag]

I think this will be the most useful thread on CPF, it will save a lot of people money from buying over rated lights. Thank You

 

[Axion]

I think this will be the most useful thread on CPF, it will save a lot of people money from buying over rated lights. Thank You

Over time I'm getting to the point where I care less and less about lumen ratings because they don't tell you much about real life application. For most anything close range ~100 lumen is plenty IMO and for anything long range lux measurements matter much more.

For example, that T10C2 put out 280 lumen vs. the 225 of the T1, and for the sake of argument I'll assume the TK11 puts out the same 225 lumen as the T1. Judging by lumen outputs you'd assume that the T10C2 is clearly brighter and thus would be "better right". Well for me, the main purpose of a really bright light is to be able to see stuff far away, for indoors I find the 200 lux (claimed on my NEX to be plenty). So according to light-reviews.com the lux measurements break out as follows (all number on max):

T10C: ~6900 lux spot % ~220 lus spill
T1: ~7800 lux spot % ~150 lux spill
TK11: ~11200 lux spot & ~215 lux spill

By those numbers I'd rank the TK11 as being the clear winner since it has an equally bright spill with a MUCH brighter hot spot. Even the T1 has a brighter spot with a marginally dimmer spill (in my experience the difference between a 150 lux spill and a 200 lux spill is barely noticeable at any kind of distance). So the T10C2 might still be better indoors where throw isn't as important, but who really needs more then 200 lumen to see stuff that's up close.

Long story shot, I really appreciate MrGman's work and it's really interesting to see who under or over rates their lights, but lets not put too much emphasis on lumen. It's to easy for new comers (like myself a few months ago) to think that lumens are everything, when as I'm finding beam profile is a HUGE part of the story.

 

[LED_Thrift]

Thank you so much for the effort you put into this MrGman. Bravo!

I saw all the EagleTacs at PhotonFest a few weeks ago. They are wonderful lights. The amount of light you get out of two NiMH batteries in a P10A2 is amazing.

 

[Philbee]

+1 for sure. I do hope the mods take notice of this thread. The best flashlight buyer is an informed buyer.



Where are all the EagleTac doubters now????:thinking:

+2
The silence is deafening.

:naughty:

 

[MrGman]

Energie, your assumptions are off, your math is off.
It is what it is. Assume 270 lumens out after then initial warm up (15 seconds or more). For some one pulsing it on and off. 282 to 276 lumens is what I kept seeing.
Current draw to the LED is in the 1.3 amp range by my calculations.

Axion. I don't disagree with those numbers and your entitled to that perspective but I find it to be just the opposite. Don't need a tiny little pencil beam to look at a tree 100 yards off for bragging rights that I can light up a tiny spot of it better with flashlight X over Y. I like bright flashlights with a good ratio of hot spot to spill. And from what I have seen here, so do a lot of other users.

We are not always walking into a house with white walls and everything can be seen with a low power light. The gun range I shoot at is all dingy lead grey and dark. 100 lumens is nothing in there. Some one walking through a dark warehouse with big empty floor space may want a lot more overall lighting in a good spread. If its all crowded with various junk and some one is trying to hide amongst it, all the more reason for a much more versatile light like the EagleTacs, Fenix's, Malkoffs. Knowing the total lumens and seeing the beam pattern is a good combination of figuring out what is a good light to buy or not. Yeah a comparison of lux of the hot spots for all of them isn't bad, but to me it tells less of the story of what I need than the lumens reading and a good beamshot image. G

 

[insanefred]

It takes time and money to do real science. You guys could probably come up with the money collectively, but I don't have the time to do all of these well. If it was just a quick reading in the IS and nothing more that might be possible. But I don't have hardly any interest in most of these lights and I don't want to have to keep paying return shipping and use my lunch hour to make trips to the post office to return lights. A few "key" lights of real interest and controversy would be sufficient.

What I will be interested is the new Lumens Factory D36 in the M90 Rattlesnake to see if its brigher and has better throw than D26 type pills.

I would want it with very light orange peel reflector and not a heavy OP texture pattern. But the weather has already started turning south and my choice of targets will blow away and get ruined in the rain. Beamshots of tree tops just don't do it for me (as you can probably tell).

We will figure something out later. G

MrGman, I don't want you to think that we want you to do time graphs.
Just enough for the light to settle into regulation.
No, you don't need to do every single light that exists, just some of the more popular ones.
If a brand is very consistent on their ratings (i.e. almost always as advertised, let's say brand X has 5 lights you tested and all perfect and 5 untested). you won't need to do the rest of them. A few tests will speak for the brand.
You have valuable tool that most of use only can dream of owning. We, ask you kindly to test more lights, and are very thankful of your efforts.

 

[MrGman]

video clip comparing the EagleTac T10C2 to Fenix T1, Malkoff M60 in Solarforce L2 host and the Solarforce R2 single mode also in Solarforce L2 host.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekYAB9qsiq4

Tried to have some fun with it, so don't take the intro too serious, Beam shots in the garage. I turned the F stop all the way up and the exposure level down to -2 so I could get a little closer to the garage door and see the spill areas. I think this shows pretty well that the EagleTac T10C2 is overall brighter than the others in this test. I love them all however. Enjoy.

 

[Energie]

Energie, your assumptions are off, your math is off.

May be.

But:
- The current (0,96 A) is from your measuring
- 2 fresh CR123 (Surefire) cells deliver 5,2-5,3 V under 1.000 mA load
- The specs of the Q5 led are from the Cree-site
- I don´t know the driver efficiency, but 90 % is not pessimistic
- Led juncion temperatur 100 °C at 1.240 mA is not much, Cree allows max. 150 °C
- a total loss of 10% (lens, reflector) seems to be realistic

So, were is the mistake?

 

[jirik_cz]

I think that Fastcar said on the l-r forums that according to the manufacturer, the current to LED is 1.3A. At this current 270 OTF lumens shouldn't be a problem with Cree R2 or good Q5.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2412997&postcount=158

Assume 270 lumens out after then initial warm up (15 seconds or more). For some one pulsing it on and off. 282 to 276 lumens is what I kept seeing.

I really appreciate your tests. But I would recommend taking measurements after longer warm up. At least 5 minutes or more. 15 seconds is not enough.

 

[LedZep]

Some impressive lights!!

Thanks MrGman!

Does anyone have the T10C2 and the T10L or P10C2 for comparison? Light-Reviews shows the T10C2 and T10L having similar output but EagleTac rates them differently, and the P10C2 as lower output even though EagleTac rates it the same as the T10C2.

Also, if the P10A2 with 2 AA's is running at 1.3a, shouldn't it be as bright as the T10C2?

I'm confused........but still learning!
Thanks everyone for what I've learned so far!

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Some impressive lights!!

Thanks MrGman!

Does anyone have the T10C2 and the T10L or P10C2 for comparison? Light-Reviews shows the T10C2 and T10L having similar output but EagleTac rates them differently, and the P10C2 as lower output even though EagleTac rates it the same as the T10C2.

Also, if the P10A2 with 2 AA's is running at 1.3a, shouldn't it be as bright as the T10C2?

I'm confused........but still learning!
Thanks everyone for what I've learned so far!

Also, if the P10A2 with 2 AA's is running at 1.3a, shouldn't it be as bright as the T10C2?

No, not at all. Alkalines should never perform like CR123. AAs under that high load will sag like a motherforker. They just can't provide the juicy needed to achieve that power. CR123s are very pwerful cells, so light fueled by them should never be compared to plain alkaline-powered lights.:thumbsup: