Master thread for disasters and generators.

[MR Bulk]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

Don't know about the Yamaha or others, but at a recent outdoor gathering one night with strung-up lights under a huge tent, I was standing next to a Honda generator and commented to one of the guys who set things up about how the lights were being lit since the generator wasn't running.

Turns out the Honda generator WAS running. Wow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

 

[BB]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

Daniel,

I have not seen a Honda Inverter type generator, or its schematic, but I will take a guess or two at an answer.

The inverter should be handling the whole load (zero to rated load). There is no fancy inverter/alternator load sharing/swapping/frequency syncing going on.

The output stage probably is setup for "droop sharing" of load and will frequency synch (within reason) to any 60 Hz AC source.

Droop Sharing would be, as an example, at 120 VAC, the invert puts out 0% current. At 110 VAC, the inverter would put out 100% of its current. This one method of current sharing I have used in larger computer systems (5 and 12 volt outputs). It works pretty well. The only real important part is the initial voltage needs to be set pretty accurately (over time and temperature). If you do the ratings correctly, you can share a 1,000 and 3,000 watt inverters just fine (assuming your sources, loads, wiring, and protection are correctly sized).

It won't work well if the set voltages are different and/or the percentage load vs voltage load curves don't match. For example, tying a Honda Inverterator (made up name—you like?) to a solar/battery powered house Inverter system may result in some bad things (line voltage oscillations, or possibly the Inverterator would deliver no power or all power).

Whether or not one generator becomes the frequency master and the other becomes a slave, or whatever, I am not sure. I have not seen them advertising these as N+1 redundant power systems.

A guess on how the motor/generator side of it works--the "generator" is probably an AC alternator as they can usually generate more power per pound than a DC generator--and they are usually simpler to build and maintain (slip rings vs commutation, etc.).

Now the output of that alternator is going to be all over the map in terms of frequency and voltage/current. An easy way to manage the problem would be to convert the AC power from the alternator into a DC intermediate voltage with a hold-up capacitor. This would also help the inverter to handle transient current requirements (turn on new appliance/speed up generator). The inverter would simply take this DC voltage and convert it back into 120 VAC 60 Hz (this part is a pretty much a big guess on my part).

Lastly, would you get the power save mode in parallel mode. My guess is yes and no. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yes, for example two units supplying "1/2" load, each unit should throttle back because each is really running at 1/4 power (for a total of 1/2 power load)... But does that make up for energy loss of running two mechanical devices to generate the same power? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the engine/alternator/inverter efficiencies involved where the losses are. Certainly, at low power levels, you would be better off shutting down one engine and letting the other handle the load. You would have to graph fuel flow vs load (for both one and two engine configurations) to figure out the one/two engine efficiency crossover point (if there is one).

-Bill

 

[cue003]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

This thread has truely provided me with allot of information and I would like to thank all those who have contributed.

Roel, welcome to the CPF family.

Curtis

 

[J_Oei]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

As far as the expensive parallel hookup for twin eu2000i units, check out this
on the cheap

I have two Hondas and built the cable, but unless I install a transfer switch, I have nowhere to plug in that 30A cord. So, usually, I end up running them separately. One for the fridge, and the other for the portable AC unit.

To extend the fuel supply, I have heard of people who have connected these to a 5 gal tank. Sure beats waking up in the middle of the night to refuel...

 

[GalvanickLucifer]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

We just had a power outage the other morning - must've gone out sometime late Tuesday night. We had the house pre-wired for a backup generator so when I woke up Wed. morning, I wheeled out our Honda EM7000is, plugged it into the transfer panel, put in some gas, one pull on the starting rope and we were up and running! Total extra time added to my morning routine was maybe 10 minutes max. They ain't cheap, but they sure are nice!

 

[Chris_Medico]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

Honda does make larger inverter based generators. The model numbers don't start with EU though so it can throw you off. They are under the industrial line and the model numbers are EB5000I and EB7000I. They each do 120/240. They don't come cheap though.

To comment on BB's post above droop sharing is the simplest way to understand what is happening so I think its a fair description even though at a technical level its a bit more complex. Since the output of these generators is transistorized they operate more like LEDs in how they react to loads and each other. The high impedance of the honda is one of the reasons that its so safe to connect together. This means one generator can resist power being fed back into it from the other generator without damage. A conventional generator has a pretty low impedance which is a major reason why its so dangerous to connect two of them together. Even if they are in synch they can get into load wars due to impedance mismatches between each other and the load and end up destroying a bunch of stuff.

Hm.. I think that might be the record for the number of times I've used "impedance" in a paragraph since college so may years ago. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh.. The ECO throttle does work even with the EU1000 connected to the EU3000.

You can find the big inverter generators here - http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/genind.asp

Chris

 

[GalvanickLucifer]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

BTW, after we purchased the EM7000is, I was asked to participate in an online survey for which I received a $10 amazon gift certificate. The questions seemed to indicate that Honda is at least considering putting out an ultra-quiet version of a 5K generator/inverter (EU5000is?)

 

[Brock]

Re: Any experience with Yamaha/Honda Generators?

It probably went over my head, but does anyone sell an easy conversion kit for the EU2000 to propane?

 

[Datasaurusrex]

Best generator?

Best generator for between $800-$1000?

Criteria: Gas, around 5000-5500 watts.

Best is defined as longest lasting, most trouble free, etc.

 

[nuggett]

Re: Best generator?

anything with a honda engine. Check northerntool.com

 

[turbodog]

Re: Best generator?

Be aware that honda engine or not, 5000W for <$1000 gets you just a normal generator. Don't expect stellar performance, great engine life, low noise levels, or great fuel economy.

Now if you spend $1000 and get a 2000W honda eu, you've got a premium generator although much smaller capacity.

And if you want a premium unit but 5000W output, be prepared to spend $2500 or more.

 

[nuggett]

Re: Best generator?

Agree with turbodog, unless you have a well pump or other vital need for 240 volts,
the smaller Hondas are the way to go. Dont forget, bigger generator=more fuel demand. How much fuel do you want stored around the house?

 

[ABTOMAT]

Re: Best generator?

Skip anything with a no-name electrical system like many catalogs sell.

Also keep in mind that a cheap generator probably won't provide clean power. It'll be OK for tools, lights, motors, etc but try running your TV or electronic heating system and they could fry.

 

[Thujone]

Re: Best generator?

Plan on having a nice UPS in between your generator and your electronics to clean up the power so you don't anything. If you already have a decent Power conditioning UPS you can save some money on your generator.

 

[JimmyM]

Re: Best generator?

I had a Coleman powermate 4000 (8 HP Techumseh engine). I ran my house and 2 neighbors', sump pumps during a hurricane. I was inside, with the lights on, fridge running, watching TV. I swapped the muffler for one from a 10HP engine. It was bigger and flowed more. It was LOUD! Please don't mistake this for hyperbole. It was obscenely loud. If loudness were people, this would be China. Of course I had no complaints from my neighbors. They had dry basements. The only problem I had with it was a little surging at light loads and transients. Richening up the carb by 1/2-3/4 of a turn fixed it. I spend ~$500.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_1037635_1037635
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326548_200326548

There are several. No they're not Honda's but for <$1000, these are just fine. I now have a 4200W Generac. Much quieter, electronic voltage regulation, low oil shutdown. Paid ~$800

 

[blahblahblah]

Re: Best generator?

I'd suggest splurging on your generator or buying a smaller one. I like the inverter based Hondas. I've also heard good things about the inverter based Yamahas. I used to have a larger inverter Honda in your watt range, but I sold it and I only have the small EU2000i now. This small generator is enough to get me through any problems I may have. It's also portable and quiet. If you decide one of these small ones will get you by for now, they have a parallel kit so you can run 2 of them connected in the future for double the power.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Re: Best generator?

Need more info! Is this your only generator? What're you using it for? Power outages at home or running tools on a jobsite or.......?


:buddies:

Edit: And does it have to be portable?

 

[JimmyM]

Re: Best generator?

I'd suggest splurging on your generator or buying a smaller one. I like the inverter based Hondas. I've also heard good things about the inverter based Yamahas. I used to have a larger inverter Honda in your watt range, but I sold it and I only have the small EU2000i now. This small generator is enough to get me through any problems I may have. It's also portable and quiet. If you decide one of these small ones will get you by for now, they have a parallel kit so you can run 2 of them connected in the future for double the power.

Which of his criteria do these meet? It's gas powered, 1/2 the power he needed, and probably at least $1000.

 

[raggie33]

Re: Best generator?

i think i can get away with a 250 watt generator.just need to run my freezer which is 100 watts and my cfl bulb 15 and tv 55.i want a generator to

 

[turbodog]

Re: Best generator?

I'll add this very little known generator fact:

It's VERY hard in real life to use more than about 75% of a normal generator's capacity, regardless of the size of the unit.

Most all consumer/cheap 240v generators really suck if all you are running 120v loads. Say you have a 4000w 240v unit. That's really 2 generators that are 120v and 2000w each.

Unless you are running only resistive loads, you can't load to full capacity (regardless of the voltage required) due to startup surge. So if you need to run typical equipment: sump pump, fridge, freezer, tv, lights, fan, microwave, and hotplate you are limited to say..... about 60% of max. And that's 60% of the 2000w, or 1200w.

Now granted, that's 2 separate circuits so you can run 2 extension cords with each loaded to about 1200 watts. Total generator load will be 2400w. This is a far cry from the 4000 on the nameplate.

For the record, commercial/premium units will have a 120v only switch. This forces the unit to only output 120v and allows you to utilize more of the generator. Problem is... 120v circuit are rated at a max of 20amps (and that's with some _really_ good extension cords). So 120v * 20a is 2400w.

Basically, you're gonna hit a wall at about 1500w per circuit on a 5000w unit, and 2400w on a mack-daddy super premium unit.

That's what makes the honda eu2000 so deceptive. It's 120v only, but 2000 watts. The noise level is extremely low and so is the fuel consumption. It's got some clean lines and a good layout. And I know from personal experience that it will run fine in 2-3 inches of standing water.

Yamaha makes a yg2800 series. It, like the honda, is 120v only, but 2800 watts. It gives a little more headroom on loading ability. Other features are comparable to the honda, but it has a 3 gallon tank (honda has a 1.1). It's only a couple of hundred more. I've ran 2-3 of them and they are very strong units. It's also rated as a commercial unit.

But back to the original post... I've bought about 7 generators in the past 12 months. These have all been honda and yamaha units, and in that name brand nobody has beaten www.wisesales.com for price and service. You have to call them for accurate pricing.

Also, a generator with a 12v dc output is nice. Most have the output, but the cables are extra. Buy them. I've used mine several times.